New fire south of Idyllwild

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 221 - 237 of total 237 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

jstan

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:55pm PT

Fire will come again. Next time the efforts of 3500 people probably won't be able to save the houses. It will be a total disaster once fire gets into Idyllwild. Right now all the residents of that town are pretty clear on this. If you are going to do something, now is the time to do it.

I think we need to learn from Facelift. When people work together toward a common goal, all of our tendencies to fight and disagree disappear. For once everything just feels incredibly right. How to start?

Climbers on ST own property in Idyllwild that have beetle killed trees on it? Start there. Take out whatever permits are required, line the fire department up with your need to use hot tools and get a party together. We can huck it out to the street where it can be trucked away. You will need some pole spurs for the trees that can't be felled.

Then talk it up with the neighbors. You may be surprised at what happens. I have a couple of saws.

When it looked like Santa Barbara was going to burn up and I was hiding on the roof so the police would not attempt to cart me away, I ran into another hider who gave me the secret for getting help in a fire. He said, "Put a half dozen number 10 cans of peaches out on a picnic table. You will have every fireman within five miles protecting your house." They are desperate for sugar and water.

All of us are fed up with the totally pointless arguing and bitching that is America. Right now Idyllwild has a golden opportunity.

Don't lose it.

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Jul 24, 2013 - 06:56pm PT

I think it's a safe assumption that the Black Forest and forests in the Western half of the US are eons apart in terms of remoteness and accessibility. In other words, if what jstan wrote was part of an approach to the entirety of the Black Forest then that approach just would not work here.

Still, I kind of chafe at the suggestion of mechanized thinning. TGT mentions such work up around the Needles and it's from that area where I've seen all the flammable remnants littering huge open stretches. About 20 yrs. ago I was up at Hermit Spire and walked across an open area which was carpeted in every imaginable remnant of from a large stand of trees after you hacked off everything and hauled away the trunk. It was a field of kindling. I don't see how that approach yields a safer forest. You've removed the most fire resistant portion--the big trees--and hacked everything else into kindling. Maybe we're talking about two different things--logging vs. thinning (if there is a distinction)--and I don't know enough to know the difference.

jstan

climber

Jul 24, 2013 - 07:15pm PT

If someone is making money- it is logging.

Alois

Trad climber

Idyllwild, California

Jul 24, 2013 - 08:59pm PT

For those who think that Idyllwild area has no fire-safe policy in place, get real, almost all of Southern California has these policies in place these days.

Idyllwild residents, local contractors, private companies and governmental agencies removed between 18,000 and 20,000 beetle damaged trees from the town in the last 5-7 years and hauled it away..

I have personally removed 7 trees from our property. My neighbors and friends all did the same.

The town has a fairly stringent policy that requires strict abatement. Fire officials give non-compliance notices and if those are not heeded, property is abated and owner charged. This has happened and not just once. Defensible space and clearance is a requirement.

We live in a place that will burn if fire goes directly at it. Nothing but luck or change of wind or timely downpour will save it. Those 3,500 people on the fire line did an incredible job to push the fire away from the town.

Next time,some homes might be saved because where they are located, some of us might be lucky again, but, no amount of clearing will safeguard everybody.

The temps have gone up in the last 20 years, precipitation is way down and getting worse every year.

Tahquitz Rock used to ice up almost every year to provide some wonderful ice climbing possibilities. Fulmer Lake froze to the point that kids could skate every year. That is all gone now.

So yes, we live in a fire danger area. And if we live here long enough...

klk

Trad climber

cali

Jul 24, 2013 - 09:06pm PT

jstan--

if each and every idyllwildian was a jstan, and each and every one of them was armed with chainsaws, loppers, and shovels, and the state and federal agencies let them self-mobilize and fed them bologna sandwiches, coffee, and maybe the occasional line of meth to help build morale, and someone could magically dispose of all the dead brush and non-commercial timber slash, it would take maybe a couple years for all of that ground to infill with scrub oak, cedar, manzanita and other volatile fuels.

the forests in the transverse ranges of socal took shape during the little ice age. the parents and grandparents of today's biggest oldest trees grew up centuries ago when conditions were a whole lot cooler and wetter. their children and grandchildren have inherited increasingly unfavorable conditions. the forest we knew on san jacinto's flanks grew up in the lee years of the waning of the little ice age in the late 19th century.

today is vastly warmer and drier and smoggier than it was when the great yellow and ponderosa pine forests were healthy.

it's possible that if we hadn't learned forestry from the germans (who in the 19th century were far and away the most advanced in forest science) and thus come to believe in fire suppression, that we might have allowed more fires in the 20th century, and that the forest today would be healthier. but it's also possible that idyllwild could've burned to the ground in one of those fires.
and even if we could get a time machine, go back to the early 20th century, and persuade period folks that control burning is a key part of a healthy forest, it wouldn't change the basic climate calculus.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:24pm PT

Here is a real-time example of what is happening wrong:

http://www.inciweb.org/incident/3552/

The Aspen Fire was discovered on Tuesday, July 23 burning on the Sierra National Forest- High Sierra Ranger District. The fire is burning below Stump Springs Road north of Aspen Springs. The fire has burned approximately 2,000 acres and remains active.
Additional resources will continue to arrive assisting in fire suppression.

Sierra National Forest initial suppression efforts, crews were able to keep the fire from burning into the Kaiser Wilderness. Firefighter and public safety remains the highest priority.
The South Central Sierra Interagency Incident Management Team assumed command of the Aspen Fire at 6:00 P.M. July 24, 2013. The team will work with the Sierra National Forest to manage suppression efforts.
Smoke from the Aspen Fire will impact air quality in local communities. Individuals sensitive to smoke are suggested to remain indoors and keep windows closed, to minimize exposure to smoke.
The fire is in steep, rugged, inaccessible terrain. There is no imminent threat to the community of Big Creek at this time.

The Sierra National Forest is suppressing 15 additional fires and all are less than ¼ acre in size; All of these fires were started by lightning.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 25, 2013 - 02:47pm PT

"Here is a real-time example of what is happening wrong:"

Ummmm....ok.....?

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 26, 2013 - 04:07am PT

WHAT?????

DMT

What is wrong is 15 fires, all started by lightning, all posing no risk to people or structures, all in relatively remote areas, all in areas with a built-up debris for many, many years, and needing a good burn.

All being actively fought. Millions being spent to do this.

These are natural fires. Let....them.....burn......

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Jul 26, 2013 - 08:17am PT

From Wikipedia

Pre-Columbian savannas once existed across North America. These were created and maintained in a fire ecology by Native Americans until the 16th century death of most Native people.[1][2][3][4] Surviving natives continued using fire to clear savanna until European colonists began colonizing the eastern seaboard two hundred years later. Many colonists continued the practice of burning to clear underbrush, reinforced by their similar experience in Europe, but some land reverted to forest.[1]

10b4me

Ice climber

Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona

Jul 26, 2013 - 10:42am PT

These are natural fires. Let....them.....burn......

Would tend to agree, but I think there are other factors that may come înto play.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:08pm PT

Ron, did you start drinking early this morning?

a natural fire is one started by natural causes, ie, not man-made.

I think the fire policy clearly makes this distinction. ALL man-caused fires (except prescription) will be fought will be fought and extinguished, no matter where, no matter how beneficial. (which is probably a sensible policy).

But naturally caused fires should be assessed for benefit vs danger, not just automatically fought.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:32pm PT

Ron, I state my opinions based upon conversations with Wilderness Managers and District Rangers within the last three weeks. They are in a constant fight with "Fire" types that want to put out everything, where the resource managers (not just punters like us, but the professional foresters) have to fight to allow fire do work it's magic.

The example I just gave on the Sierra NF, where they are fighting to put out 15 quarter-acre fires that pose no dangers (according to the fire guys!), is an example.

These are the fires that create a natural firebreak that can keep things from going nuclear.

Dr. Christ

Mountain climber

State of Mine

Jul 26, 2013 - 01:50pm PT

My understanding is that it is FS policy to let naturally caused fires burn in wilderness areas, as long as they pose a threat to human life or property.

I fully support WELL CONCEIVED fuels management projects that include consideration of flora, fauna, soils, hydrology, etc. You wouldn't believe the resistance the FS gets every time they do a thinning project within public view.

They did a recent thinning project on the SW side of Emerald Bay Road out by Camp Richardson. They did a great job... nice size class distribution, good ground cover but not too excessive... and they got tons of complaints about "ruining the forest with their logging." Take a look next time you drive by... that is a good example of what a healthy stand looks like. The few fuels treatments they did near North Upper Truckee saved many houses from the Angora Fire.

Many areas in SoCal are fire dependent ecosystems, meaning they have evolved with fire, which periodically thins the chaparral... which doesn't happen when you have houses all over the place.

Good slide show: http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/ecoregions/docs/papers-presentations/fire-regimes.pdf

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT

From last night's Summer Concert, where a bunch of the heroes who helped save our town were acknowledged by the community:

Trad climber

JTree & Idyllwild

Jul 26, 2013 - 03:43pm PT

today from the Z107.7 Joshua Tree web site:

MOUNTAIN FIRE CONTAINMENT EXPECTED TODAY, CAUSE RELEASED
Fire investigators say the Mountain Fire was caused by electrical equipment failure on private property, a nearly 20-acre parcel of land along Highway 243 in Mountain Center owned by Tarek M. Al-Shawaf, of Saudi Arabia. Because a fire originated on a property does not mean the owner was involved. The wildfire, which burned 27,531 acres, is expected to be fully contained today. The cost of fighting the fire now stands at $25.2 million. More than 3,400 firefighters assisted in efforts to contain the blaze, which was repor¬ted at 1:43 p.m. July 15 at Highway 243 and Highway 74. It burned from east of Mountain Center, through the Apple Canyon and Bonita Vista areas, and then along the Desert Divide and southern portion of the San Jacinto Wilderness. Seven homes and 15 other structures were destroyed. The fire led to the evacuations of several mountain communities, including Mountain Center, Idyllwild, Fern Valley and Pine Cove, and the temporary closure of the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway.