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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Jun 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
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If Snowden is a whistleblower trying to protect innocent Americans, why is he also telling everyone that the US is spying on China? Is that to protect Americans? Can someone explain how using your security clearance to reveal our government's (alleged) spying activities against another country (a country which clearly hacks into our computers on a daily basis) is protecting innocent Americans? Can it really be argued that it is coincidence that he reveals this information about China while he is hiding in Hong Kong and asking the Chinese and Hong Kong governments to NOT extradite him. Is this really any different than outright treason by someone who gives classified information to a foreign country and then asks that country for protection? What would people say if Snowden also told Iran about the spying we are doing on them, and then bought a one-way ticket to Tehran? Would people still be calling him a hero?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jun 13, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
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Some of the reasons why the story was told: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile
"For an American, the traditional home for the kind of story Snowden was planning to reveal would have been the New York Times. But during extensive interviews last week with a Guardian team, he recalled how dismayed he had been to discover the Times had a great scoop in election year 2004 – that the Bush administration, post 9/11, allowed the NSA to snoop on US citizens without warrants – but had sat on it for a year before publishing.
Snowden said this was a turning point for him, confirming his belief that traditional media outlets could not be trusted. He looked around for alternative journalists, those who were both anti-establishment and at home with blogging and other social media. The member of this generation that he most trusted was the Guardian commentator Glenn Greenwald. "
"In what were to be the last words of the interview, he (Snowden) quoted Benjamin Franklin: "Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.""
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jun 13, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jun 13, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder
Ron, do you have a source for this? Can you show any evidence that this took place?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
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Norton,
Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.
John
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
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In fact he sold that stolen intel to China........BUT you DONT give our secrets away to the opposite side.
Ron, I'm curious about why you think Snowden gave away secrets to China? I haven't seen anything in the press stating that. Sure he's saying the US has been hacking China, but that's not exactly a secret.
The link I pasted last night gives far more detail as to how the NSA is spying in China, and its published by the Washington Post, with info pre-Snowden. It states, "The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities."
All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."
That's a very broad statement, without much detail. That the NSA "hack(s) network backbones" should come as no surprise to anyone who pays attention to what the NSA is all about.
I would like to hear a lot more technical details from Snowden about NSA data collection within the US. That concerns me a lot more than what the NSA is doing in China.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
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Worth a repeat:
the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 13, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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Ron stated:
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China.. He ran right to them. He didnt run to Oprah, or Barbra Walters
Ron, are you making stuff up again?
you know, that old "if I can think it in my head, then it must be true" stuff?
there just is no reason to not go with what is known to be true, why make stuff up Ron?
people call you out constantly but you just keep rolling along, never ever learning from it
ok, let's do it again
show your source, Ron, prove it
show some links where YOU got this information that he SOLD intelligence to CHINA
why do you keeping doing this sh!t, Ron?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jun 13, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
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Ron's sources? Here they are...
Its the Gubmint, Damnit!
By: Ron Anderson
BSP
2012
Know-It-All From Moundhouse
By: Ron Anderson
Retarded Press
2008
My Sonar Says So
By: Ron Anderson
ImmaIdiot
2005
Sources? More Like Sauced
By: Ron Anderson
IG Fool
2003
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jun 13, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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...for telling China specifically how we spy on them...
What are the "specifics" Ron, and how do you know this?
edit - links, etc. will be appreciated. not all of us are able to "channel" this information from the cosmos....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.
Now this couldn't be more spot on...
Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.
No, I didn't say that. I said if you believe a terrorist nuke attack is likely to have a digital footprint then it's pretty hard to argue against the strategic radiation and communications monitoring decision taken by BushCo for our national defense going forward. Certainly not without proffering a viable alternative or justifying why none is required.
But as I keep saying, it is a different world and our digital toys are two-edge swords which can be used against us. They've certainly remade the face of asymmetric warfare and remoted-IED's are responsible for the majority of our losses, injuries, and long-term costs of the current wars. They do the same on the terrorist front (played a big role in the Mumbai attack for instance).
They're part of an NSA spy ring dedicated to spying on Americans.
Huh, on what f*#king planet is that? They are a commercial entity that has been compelled by the government - under the powers vested by the Patriot Act's business records provision - to comply with orders to allow access to their clickstream and analyses.
I mean, that's what Google is, its what that company does...quibble as to commercial vs. government, the apparatus of google is built to spy on people, simple as that, built from the ground up for that specific purpose, to sell the data. So they sold some to the government - this is a surprise?
No, that's not what google is. They do sell data to advertisers. they did not sell any data to the government. I expect a little more precision from someone who does what you do for a living.
Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.
Again, on what planet? Oh, that's right, planet Vedas where all the answers are carved in stone reliefs and pre-ordained.
Snowden sold out to CHINA.
Ron, dude, at this point I'm pretty sure one of the US cartel gangs has a low-dose LSD drip hooked up to your water supply. Man, if you keep reading one crank, nutjob blog and website after another you are going to be even more completely lost and drama-queened out then you already are. You're definitely getting crowned the reigning ST political Queen.
The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.
This is also spot on and that's really been the case since Nixon and why the War Powers Resolution was enacted over Nixon's veto. The WPR wasn't the best response to those abuses and has caused no shortage of problems of it's own. I've laid out my own thoughts here on what 'war powers' the president should have and what would have to happen for the US to actually engage in any significant military conflict.
What is Iran the boogeyman? Of COURSE the US is spying on Iran and China, hacking away at their systems even as they try to hack away at ours.
This is another example of the Internet forever changing the face of societies and 'war'. There are national, extra-national, commercial, military, criminal, and individual entities engaged in digital piracy of any and all forms you can think of. Until we redesign computing and networking down to the chip level for secure and verifiable systems and messaging (more security at a high price) all nations, corporations, and individuals will be in a continual state of cyber warfare. Unlike the drug war, this one is very, very real.
The fact he ran to China, however, does suggest treason, agreed.
I'd think someone who's traveled as much as you would realize that, even after going back to the Chinese, Hong Kong is still a great place to make connections. I can't say I would have announced there, but this is another case of the Internet really shrinking the planet and options for someone in Snowden's position. I mean, even Lesotho, Lichtenstein and Tonga all have extradition treaties with the US. Jumping from HK to the Maldives would have been an option, but once in the Maldives you're pretty much not going anywhere else and are permanently in a goldfish bowl.
It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.
They are looking at the metadata without warrants under Patriot Act authorization. If they see a pattern in the data they don't like you can bet they issue a warrant for the associated content and I suspect those warrants cover large buckets of data, not thimblefuls.
the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
That is not the case. It may feel that way in 'spirit', but that is not an accurate characterization of either the warranting or the oversight.
Regardless, a traitor is someone that steals intel then SELLS it to the competition. Manning and this latest jerk did exactly that. They didnt just volunteer it up for the good of man,, noooo they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder.
Ron. See above post and, please, get back on your meds - for the children if no one else.
All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."
The world's main fiber trunks are definitely all surveilled and, really, if you tap sea cable landing sites in Hawaii, NYC, LA, FL, Seattle, England and anywhere on the Africa One cable and you pretty much have it all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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They are not part of anyone's 'spy ring' except their own.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
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We'll have to agree to disagree on that characterization.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 13, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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Google didn't know your porn preferences either, at first. It's part of the big data learning curve of the last 10-15 years. That uncertainty is also why communications monitoring is paired with expanding radiation monitoring coverage. The question isn't do they know everything or can in fact detect such an attack, but rather should they try. It's actually a pretty stark choice - there is no 'sort of try' when it comes to this sort of thing - it's either do or don't. And if the answer is don't, then that decision is not necessarily without serious consequences of its own.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 13, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
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LOL
June 11, 2013
The Honorable Darrell Issa
Chairman, House Committee on Government Reform & Oversight
2157 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
Chairman Issa:
Thank you for your ongoing efforts to investigate abuses of civil liberties by employees of the Internal Revenue Service.
These abuses seem to indicate a larger, higher pattern of ideologically-driven harassment of Americans which Congress has an obligation to fully investigate with every tool at our disposal.
Frankly I am disappointed by revelations Obama administration personnel have been less than forward about what they knew and when they knew it.
As you know, recent revelations show the National Security Agency has been keeping an “ongoing, daily” log of every domestic phone call in the United States.
I respectfully request your Committee subpoena the records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel.
If President Obama is collecting such information, he certainly would want us to use it. If he has nothing to hide he has nothing to be afraid of.
Warmest wishes,
STEVE STOCKMAN
Member of Congress
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
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The govts. manufactures terrorists.
The govts. supplies the terrorists with what they need to terrorize.
Then the govt. creates fear mongers like healyje to create the infrastructures to keep him safe from their own terrorists which they control.
Stooopid Americans can't for the life of them understand a simple thing.
Instead they buy all the garbage that's spoon fed to them daily ......
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