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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Mar 27, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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The fall of capitalism
Create a war or an event every 10 years
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 27, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
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Several of you have quoted my post. Check out the movie I referred to(it's on netflix, and probably hulu)and you'll understand that I'm not debating the advantages or disadvantages of capitalism. I'm saying that free market principles of supply and demand are not driving the economy. And neither is trickle down economics (whether its a buzzword, theory or concept). The controllers of this economy are deliberately preventing a free market while they tell you how bad gov. regulation is, and how socialism will limit your freedom. If we have taxes and gov. regulation we don't have a free market, and that is why I'm saying we don't have capitalism (JohhL understands in his post). Agree, disagree or whatever you choose, but I'm hoping you understand my position. I keep explaining it.
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 27, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
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I'm not intending to say this is new. It seems new to many who post to this thread, including you because you're opposing my basic premise that supply and demand are not driving the economy. Lobbyists may be rent-seeking, no disagreement on that from me. Corporations are literally (I mean literally in the literal sense) writing the regulations of their own industry. And their lobbyists write the tax codes that they must abide by. This allows them to pay very low taxes. Also allows them to heavily influence prices of their products and limit competition from others. Do you still believe consumers are controllers of the economy?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 27, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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We are beginning to witness the first cars going off the track on the huge train wreck that is the Affordable Care Act. Of course, those that designed this obamanation (pun intended) will claim that if it hadn't been for those rascals on the other side of the aisle we would have a system that really works. Obviously, never wanting a good crisis to go waste, they'll then push for their ultimate goal for this legislation-a single payer (government) system.Full implementation of the law ,with single payer added, will be as large of a transfer of wealth as we have ever seen.This wealth transfer will not fall upon it's stated targets of the 2% and large corporations so much as it will hit it's real targets:the responsible legions of working class people better known as the middle class, outside of government in the private sector, and the younger generations more than the old.
Can anyone show me how i am wrong in this thinking?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 27, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
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Nope.
In CA rates for health insurance are going to go up by 62%.
Not because of greedy insurance companies, but because of changes mandated by Obamacare.
No free lunch.
If you are a twenty something and healthy you are going to pay thru the nose for some crackheads or 50 yo smokers free insurance.
They can just wait till their teeth fall out or the lung cancer cough starts and opt in with the "no preexisting conditions" clause.
You get stuck with the bill.
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Jorroh
climber
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Mar 27, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
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"Obviously, never wanting a good crisis to go waste, they'll then push for their ultimate goal for this legislation-a single payer (government) system."
...thats what I'm hoping for.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 27, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
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you are hoping for the government to intrude in every action you take?
If they are paying for your health don't you think they will then have an obligation to regulate everything that you
participate in,
eat,
recreationaly indulge in,
since that will directly impact the cost of taking care of you?
Climbing is dangerous
orthopedic surgeries are expensive.
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John M
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 12:23am PT
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Frontline did a documentary on healthcare around the world. Its worth watching. Its on netflix if you have that. Its called "sick around world".
JphnE,
I believe that people who work hard should be rewarded well. I also believe that healthcare professionals do an important job and should be paid well. I have a problem with health insurance companies and believe that it can be done better. The above documentary gives many good examples.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 28, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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TGT writes:
"If they are paying for your health don't you think they will then have an obligation to regulate everything that you participate in,"
They DAMN WELL BETTER regulate everything risky or potentially dangerous, if they expect ME ( the Taxpayer ) to cover someone else's healthcare.
I don't want to see any fat people, any smokers ( pot smokers included ), or anyone engaging in homosexual activity ( homos enjoy lower life expectancy - higher health care costs. look it up ), because all those optional conditions unnecessarily add to the cost of care.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 28, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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Now Chaz-Your post was not very PC with the powers that want to be. Hell you're even demonstrating a mind and voice of your own and that is not thing they want in the highly regulated world we are headed for.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:01am PT
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I'd rather not have to pay for anybody else's healthcare but mine.
In a system where we're all responsible for our own health care, we can tollerate fat-asses, homos, smokers, climbers, racers, flyers, motivated people of all kinds, all doing their own thing, and not have to worry how much their chosen unconventional behavior will cost me in taxes.
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John M
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:02am PT
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You already pay for a lot of these people.
You just don't seem to know it.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:06am PT
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We're already paying for Socialism. We're just not seeing any of the benefits. Tax money just goes down a big toilet. Proof once more that government here isn't working. Let's not saddle government with any more responsibilities it won't be able to handle.
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John M
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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We are seeing plenty of benefits from things like social security. But since you don't seem to have ever studied the past, you are ignorant of how.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:13am PT
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As far as investment returns go, Social Security is at the bottom of the list. If S.S. was a good investment, why would contributions need to be mandated by law? If S.S. was a good investment, people would contribute voluntarily. You wouldn't have to force people into it.
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John M
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:14am PT
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Your world is perfect.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 28, 2013 - 01:17am PT
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It's safe, it's good, it's in a lockbox with the rest of the loot.Haha.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 28, 2013 - 10:29am PT
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John M, if SS is in such good hands then why is its long-term viability in
such doubt?
Government, by definition, is inept, corrupt, and inimical to the peoples'
interests, most especially when its practioners are almost wholly insulated
from the threat of dismissal for any reason. Restore some accountability to
government and you will have made a major step. No, make that a huge step.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 28, 2013 - 11:19am PT
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Gee, then why were the Founding Fathers so hell-bent on creating a government back in the 1780s?
So we could bitch about our own guvmint, not one in London.
They didn't even know the definition of government?
It is well documented that they were a bunch of starry-eyed idealists.
Why do we even put these people on our money?
Gud question. Or is it more about how did we allow them to put themselves in charge?
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