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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Aug 26, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
Very fortunately, that's not up to the USADA. When they attempt to "strip" LA of his TDF wins without the authority to do so, their arrogance offends me.
Curt
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
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If this stands.....
The UCI needs to retest everyone that might get the "titles", whether they have ever tested positive or not. They need to question all their team mates to see if they witnessed anything.
The USADA has to retest all US rider's samples that ever won anything and question all their team mates.
Only fair.
But they won't. They wanted to shoot a famous villager to send a message. They want the publicity to justify their jobs and all the money they are paid.
This retroactive approach is a slippery slope.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
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Aug 26, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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I've followed much but not all of this thread. I've not seen much about the issues with UCI in terms of enabling doping. Padraig addresses this in this post which I think covers the complexity of this situation pretty well:
Endgame
The UCI is in need of reform as well.
Also, here is some breaking news from the Onion (not really!)... :-)
Lance Armstrong Lets Down Single Person Who Still Believed Him
Eric
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 26, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
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Never had any respect for forced contract signings with monopolies.
Oh sure you don't have to sign this contract but if you don't you can't ride.
Oh sure you don't have to sign the contract but if you dont you can't have electricity.
whatever.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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Not so fast, in the race to condemn.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column
Anti-doping authorities don't play fair against athletes
It's a system deliberately designed to place almost insurmountable hurdles in the way of athletes defending themselves or appealing adverse findings. Evidence has emerged over the years that laboratories certified by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, have been incompetent at analyzing athletes' samples or fabricated results when they didn't get the numbers they were hoping to see.
We're talking about three, four, five years of litigation
Before we go further, let's address the question most people think is the nub of the matter. Is Lance Armstrong a doper?
Here's the answer: I don't know. You don't know either. More to the point, Travis Tygart, head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, doesn't know. That hasn't kept USADA from declaring Armstrong to be guilty of charges it has not proved in public, or to attempt to strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. (It's not yet clear that USADA has the latter authority.)
In part that's because under the rules written by the anti-doping system, athletes' cases are heard not in a court of law but in arbitration.
Arbitration is a system that more Americans are becoming familiar with, to their misfortune and distaste. It's where banks, brokerages, cellphone companies and other powerful business institutions force their customers to litigate grievances, for the simple reason that arbitration systems favor those who use them the most — banks, brokerages, cellphone companies, etc.
The real secret of why anti-doping agencies have been able to hound athletes out of their sports with impunity is that in this system they're not only the prosecutors but also the judges and juries. They write the arbitration rules, including those governing what evidence is relevant and under what circumstances it can be questioned.
Defending oneself in this system is horrifically expensive. The hiring of lawyers and scientific experts, the cost of visiting labs in foreign lands and attending hearings all over the country can drive a routine defense to six figures.
How many amateur athletes have the resources to do that? So most defendants give in and accept a suspension for a year or more. But countless innocent athletes, or competitors whose violations are clearly the result of an accident or blameless error, carry the stigma of cheater because they couldn't afford a defense.
"You're up against a prosecutor who drafts the rules, and goes back and changes the rules when they go against him," says Michael Straubel, director of the sports law clinic at Valparaiso University Law School and a defense attorney who handed USADA one of its rare defeats in an arbitration case.
For example, World Anti-Doping Agency rules provide for an eight-year statute of limitations, meaning that anti-doping agencies aren't supposed to use test results older than that to bring charges against an athlete. But Armstrong has pointed out that USADA was basing its case against him on test results as much as 14 years old. Presto: WADA is proposing to update its statute of limitations to 14 years — and it's proposing that the update be retroactive.
Federal Judge Sam Sparks of Austin, Texas, who was asked by Armstrong to block USADA's case against him, found lots not to like about the agency's pursuit of the cyclist. He called USADA's charging document, a letter that listed Armstrong's purported doping violations, "so vague and unhelpful it would not pass muster in any court in the United States." The deficiency, he said, "is of serious constitutional concern."
And now a personal story.
It seems like one would want, like Lance, to fight for vindication of one's name, no matter what.
I was sued in a malpractice case 30 years ago, in which I was the treating ER physician in a small town ER. The fellow fell off a horse and hit his head. I established he'd fractured his skull and had brain damage, and transferred him to the closest major center, as we did not have resources/specialists to treat him there. My care was perfect. He did not do well, and everyone was sued. Three years dragged on, and one by one, parties settled out. Then I was served with ANOTHER suit from MY malpractice insurance carrier, to be let out of defending me. Turns out that the contract holder had not paid the premium on the insurance. Long story short, I would have had to pay any costs of going to trial.
The Plaintiffs made an offer to let me out for $10,000, which would require me to report this settlement for the rest of my career. My attorneys told me that defending the case would cost me, out of my pocket, a minimum of $90,000 IF I WON. If I lost, or were found to have contributed to the damage in any way, THERE WAS NO LIMIT ON WHAT IT COULD COST ME.
I settled the case for $10,000, and I have had to give explanations to every employer, on every university application, and every hospital application, and every renewal for my entire career.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Ken....Sounds like extortion-fraud on behalf of your insurance company....? Good article from the LA Times...The punch line , if Armstrong has his titles taken away , is that everyone knows he was the winner on a level playing field of dopers....Lance passed all the drug tests and is now being tested via heresay 7 years after the fact...I think it is called double jeopardy...?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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I'm having a hard time trying to see any relevance of Ken M's case for the case of LA. Ken M's case does not seem fair. In the LA case there are 10 persons who are ready to tell the story about what really happened. The witnesses are comparable to doctors who dare not publically speak out against the dark side of a dysfunctional health care system, but who have finally decided to tell the story.
I wonder if corporate and media tricksters are trying to scare the witnesses off?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Telling the story will not make them heros in any possible way. But they will contribute to open up the possibility of a cleaner sport.
Jebus: What is interesting with a yellow wrist band in the LA case?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
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I have questions about where these 10 credible witnesses were when the Dept. of Justice investigated this matter for two years. Clearly, team physicians, coaches, teammates, etc., would have been the first place they started. Also, how credible are those witnesses if the drug tests nevertheless turned up negative?
If the DOJ was unable to piece together a credible case in that amount of time, the puny little USADA probably has little more than it's dick in its hand. No wonder Armstrong refused to arbitrate. They probably would have insisted on binding arbitration and the right to select the arbitrators. You'd have to be an idiot to agree to participate on those terms.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Regardless of any past wrongdoing by Hiltzik this article is reasoned and
balanced. As for the LA case being cut and dried that is purely mental
speculation that ignores existing facts and, more importantly, many facts
the public is not privy to.
I have a good friend who is a world famous bio-chemist and the VP in charge
of R&D for a worldwide drug company. He says those anti-doping labs are a joke and
he wouldn't have his dog's pee tested there.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Reilly
Is your friend treating his dog in such a way that his dog needs to be tested? Or are you just being polemical? And if your friend is treating his dog in such a way that it needs to be tested - is your friend then a person to be trusted?
Is this a typical American discussion with yellow wrist bands and dog pee carrying the same data and reasoning weight as the words of witnesses and the results of laboratory tests? Is this the heaven of American subjectivity or is it just spinning?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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LA isn't even challenging the merits of the case anymore - it is all procedural. Where on earth did you form that belief? From his unwillingness to participate in arbitration? He's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. Whether you choose to believe him or not, that's challenging the merits of the case. He's just not stupid enough to step into a one-sided forum to formally deny those charges.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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Fat Dad
I am able to understand that the burden of evidence was at last to heavy for LA to carry.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
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Chief,
That letter is contradictory and, in my opinion, a cop out. First, the letter is from the UCI retracting it's own prior public announcement, in effect, we didn't mean it that time; now we do. Second, the comment in the letter:
fact known to us at this stage, there seems to be no question that theADO which discoveredthe violations is USADA. Therefore, USADA’s results management procedure (i.e ., the “USADA Protocol”) is controlling. What facts? If the guy doped, the UCI would have the results. What facts were "discovered" to contradict those results?
There is a fundamental conundrum that both the UCI and USADA are establishing. One, they've relied on their own testing in the past as evidence of doping. Two, they're now saying that if you have "evidence" which contradicts our own test results, which we've always assumed to be accurate and inviolate, that the test results don't mean anything in the face of that other evidence. How can that be?
I believe what this posturing shows proves the premise of the Hzitlick (sp?) article: that the anti-doping agencies just make up this sh#t as they go along.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
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I find it telling that very few cyclists (pro) have anything to say (unless they have been caught). My suspician is because they all know that many of them enhanced in the past and probably many still do some things that are less risky. The recent story in the NYTimes by Vaughters shows that the regulators let the cyclists enhance (didn't really care) so they all did it to keep up. Now to come back and pretend that the organizers don't play a major role in why this happened is foolish. all the insiders know that everyone that was good in the old days was doping and as said earlier whoever gets named the winner of the races that LA won is very likely to be a doper also. So just put and asterisk by every winners name and say they are probably dopers because that is the way it is.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
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Chief....There's a lot going on behind the scenes...Pray tell ? One who hangs out with the bolsheviks....RJ
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Lance got assf*#ked in a sport full of dopers. What else is new? Got to have that strawman to burn in the end
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 27, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
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During the 2002 Winter olympics , Frank Shorter was head of the doping cops...Apparently the cops tell the athletes what they are going to test for...Well shorter fibbed when he told them what they were testing for and some russian women got caught red-handed when they believed shorter...They had to turn in their medals...And Chief hangs out with Russians...?
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