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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:35pm PT
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The hardest trad routes of all time are going up right now. So many people are doing wicked stuff in the high mountains now. Too bad that the high mountains kill many people. Now or back then. They still die.
It is true that somebody who can climb any 5.11, with little need for too much pro, and who can climb vertical ice that is only 2 inches thick, can do an incredible number of fantastic routes in the high mountains. That used to be the goal, ya know, of Robbins and that crowd. To take the Yosemite standards and send them to the high mountains.
It didn't really come from Yosemite. Those eastern Euro dudes who were locked up behind the iron curtain are bad ass mo-fo's.
I still think that, though. The greatest routes are probably the hard ones in the mountains. Number grades just keep getting munched slowly away and increase. To live in the mountains you have to go fast, and that means living with not much pro....on purpose. Take a light rack and go fast. It is also by far the most fun, or seems that way from the little that I did.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:38pm PT
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Numbers are an anathema to the true spirit of ascent.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
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I love to get out with young climbers, often i am qite a bit older than there fathers. I continue to be amazed (in awe might be more appropriate) at how climbing standards have progressed. A great thing about climbing is that whatever level you are climbing at, if it is your cutting edge, that level/grade is all that is the case- climbing is that personal.
The major difference in climbing today compared to a few decades ago is the extreme specialization that has occurried.
The nail biting transitions that occur when climbers transition from gym to outdoor, from sport to trad, and from single pitch to multi-pitch are rather humorous to observe.
I am greatful that climbing continues to evolve, activities that become moribund don't stay around long. Humans are often afraid of change but the art is to embrace change with a wink and a nod to the past.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Aug 30, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
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Donini has spoken well. My other old buddy who is kicking it says the same thing. They would know, having never stopped the climbing life.
I still guess that Donini doing the FA of Torre Egger (was that before the Ferrari route on Cerro Torre?), still holds a special place in his heart.
I remember reading about that about a thousand times as a fifteen year old.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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What is the point about trad anyway?
I dunno, for me it has always been and will always be about simply ending up captivated by idea of what some line presents and then either doing it on the terms it makes available or walking away if I can't.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Regardless of the difficulty, walking up to something you know little or nothing about, climbing it, and leaving little or no trace behind is pretty satisfying, at least for me.
Wandering around the Wonderland and Queen Mountain in JT just climbing stuff we walked up to was some of the most fun I have had climbing.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
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Right on StahlBro.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Aug 30, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
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Back to the original thoughts of Largo...
I think there are flairs, palming liebacks, rattly fingers-1" to 1 1/4" straight in jambs, and certain offwidths that require technique and balance that are learned skills and not natural. Fist, slabs, fingers, roofs, etc are places youth, power, and muscle can take over and dominate. A while back, some 'euro-sport climber' basically was trained on joshua tree cracks and in a week and flashed Equinox. Maybe then the classic finger crack is really much easier than it seems. I have long been an advocate of rating for single hardest move which would knock many routes several grades down. A sustained 5.3 is not 5.5, therefore a sustained 5.11 is not 5.13. Another key is onsite ability WITHOUT any beta-not even a photo-how well can someone do route x. I know a Steiger classic on Mt Lemmon that is you set up with the wrong hand is nearly impossible vs getting it right in the first place (Pegasus on mean mistreater- does not help on lead you are feet out from pro).
Another question can also be raised that the numbers chasing has bypassed a set of technique dependent moderates. I wonder if the wide boyz would have done well on more 'puke inducing' offwidths then the roofs they specialized in. (jaybro-is Deliverance @ pinnacle peak more technique dependent than say improbability drive @ granite mountain or paisano?)
Last, the whole Honnold thing. Peter Croft was rocking sh#t 20+ years ago and just a little more low key than professionals of today. There are 300 great climbers you have never heard of of the last 100 years that have done solos that would make your eyes melt.
I'll tell you what. We take all these super athletes over to Dresden for a month, sick them on routes without having them get a drop of beta or see each other climb. No cameras, no fireside chat- anonymous ability. Lets see if Ondra and Sharma can really compete with Bernd.
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TomT
Trad climber
Aptos.
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
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I think I saw a video where Honnold walks up to an x route in Dresden and does it no hesitation.. my eyes melted.
I think I saw a video where Sharma is taking multiple falls from 75 feet into the the water in Spain- my eyes melted.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 30, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
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I am climbing better rock than ever in my 50's. I gave up the hand drill for good I hope! That effin hand drilling works your tendonitis pretty bad. the bosch is heavier but gets er done! I am not physicaly strong enough(shoulder injury) to be as good on ice as I was 10 years ago but still haveing fun and leading 4+ off the couch... It's all good. No bitter old guy syndrome here...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Aug 31, 2012 - 12:56am PT
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Climbing in Jtree every winter I get to meet a lot of climbers from all over. It never changes you have a select few super bad asses like my friend Fabi who onsite hard stuff but mostly you have some pretty good climbers and then a bunch of beginners. Not many crank 5.11 trad in Jtree based upon the stories around the campfire.
I consider myself a trad climber (a bad one) but recently moved to the Philippines and have been climbing on limestone for the first time (sport climbing). I can definetly tell I am getting much stronger and climbing better than I ever have. They locals think I am pretty brave for trying to onsight everything (mostly unsuccessfully). I tell them I'm not brave I just want to give myself the opportunity to have the thrill of adventure while also believing in myself enough to succeed.
I have fallen in love with climbing all over again. Climbing is about the people and places (think of all the awesome belay seats you have ever had looking out over an amazing valley) you meet as much as the level of route you climb. I am having the time of my life (with my new friends) and that may explain why I am climbing better than ever more than anything else.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 31, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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I'm still a bit confused about the concept/comment on being well rounded when the OP is so Yosemite-centric.
Honest question, how many of the supposed "5.11 climbers" that were part of the average from the 1970s were onsighting hard grit?
Also, I don't get the snide, backhanded insults of the Europeans. Didn't Edlinger make Grand Illusion look like a cakewalk? Isn't one of the most iconic photos of climbing in Yosemite Gullich soloing Separate Reality?
I realize that Yosemite is a testpiece, a legend, and the cradle of trad and aid climbing, just like Chamonix is the cradle of modern mountaineering. I know quite a few French climbers, some guides, some not, who onsighted Astroman no problem, after spending a week or so in the Valley getting quick at building anchors.
While healyje may be technical right about the "average" climber's abilities relative to all those who don a harness and climbing shoes from time to time, whether indoor or out, the well-rounded climber who onsights 5.11 trad/sport is just not that rare - maybe not a dime a dozen, but they weren't a dime a dozen in the 1970s either. Of the Euros and Californians that I know, who are no-names by any media standards, I can count at least 10 people who climb at that level (let me reassure all of you, I am not even close to being one of them), and I'm just one person. Hell, one fine day about 8 years ago I was leisurely cragging at Donner Summit (Snowshed wall) and I witnessed no less than 3 different climbers cruise up Panic in Detroit (5.12b) after all warming up on Monkey Paws (5.11d).
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 31, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
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the observation--the data--is holding up pretty well according to new responses here.
Still we have people confusing the observation with the explanation of the observation.
There are dozens of reasons why it's still pretty rare to see .11 all--rounders. Top of the list might be that most climbers don't care. Why is it anything other than patently obvious that great sport climbers can be great trad leaders when they care for the game?
If you need any evidence for standards, bouldering tells the story of the past 100 years most concisely (and there aren't that many crack boulders, outside of Woodson). Spare the complaints about pads, too. People do hard-as-nails moves way above pads that are about as scary as anything you can do on a rope. Hard moves are the measure of a rock climber.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 31, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
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Round (they know who they are) all--rounders are perfectly content with 5.9.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
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I had a totally different kind of intro to rock climbing, at the gunks. Fear of heights and scary rusty pitons were a big part of it. It was much more about conquering the unknown and conquering your fears. Some people just got stuck at 5.7, it wasn't their physical limit by any means, just the point they got too scared. 5.8 would be an entire grade scarier. When I moved away from there I had led about 25 of the 5.10s, but had never tried to lead an 11-. That was my fear level I guess.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 31, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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Lots of times I am more scared over bolts than gear??? YMMV it's all in what you are used to...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Bouldering sends the most people to the hospital. Just because what you're doing feels scary and commiting doesn't mean it's scary and commiting to the next guy. A 12 sport climber probably takes more, longer and scarier falls in an afternoon than a typical tradhead takes in a year - or perhaps even a lifetime.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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He has a bit of a point. Who do i trust to belay me on a serious climb? I will take a sport weinie over mr trad bumbly any day of the week. The spurt climber has actually caught leader falls.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Don,
That looks hard.
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