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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 19, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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Right on Nita. I was just trying to steer the thread back onto faith. I forgot to look at the original post.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:30am PT
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Jingy,
We don't know.
There may be another chance where all things we perceive as unjust, G_D is way ahead of us and has already considered and has made a way.
When Yeshua, Jesus Christ, died on the cross and before his resurrection on the 3rd day later, he went to Hades to preach.
Maybe Yeshua will do that for all people throughout history who had no possible opportunity to hear the good word, to hear about Yeshua, and for those people to hear the good word and to make a choice.
We don't know, but I'd like to think so. Why would he go to Hades to preach between his death and resurrection? He was victorious and he finished the job that the Father Elohim sent him to do. The price had been paid for sin and now for eternity. He could go to Hades and rescue those who never knew him and never had an opportunity. I'd like to think so.
Did Christ Descend Into Hell?
by Lambert Dolphin
http://www.ldolphin.org/descend.html
These are deep theological questions and are not easily answered.
But the day of Salvation is today. If you are hearing the Good News, respond to it, and ask forgiveness and let Yeshua come into your heart and change you anew. Be born again. We aren't promised tomorrow.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 12:35am PT
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No offense, but I don't recall even asking to be.
Therefore, it's not my fault. IE, no guilt.
Be what may, I didn't do it. Nobody ever asked me. WHY am I?
Rude Cosmic Bastards. I was one with The Universe.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:02am PT
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O.K. Here is my story. It may sound weird, but it is true. My mother was a Catholic and my father was raised Baptist. Dad was also a research scientist, so he threw away the theology and kept the morals. Mom just went with the flow. I grew up in the Bay Area in the sixties and seventies and toyed with all sorts of ideas about religion and spirituality and even mysticism. Experience is what finally defined my foundation for religious experience. Once when I was about seventeen, I was attempting some form of meditation that I had read about. Meditation always seemed like a practical way to get that mystical and spiritual experience iwas seeking. I got very relaxed and was trying to "peel the onion" so to speak to find my inner essence. That is when I got this message. Not a voice but a message. It merely said, "find my son". It took me a while to understand the significance, but it was a powerful experience that I could not just push aside. I haven't quite found him but I think I'm getting closer.
I posted this in 2008 on another thread. If one compares that with what I had said earlier in this thread you can see that I have made some personal discoveries. As some others have pointed out, these personal discoveries are important to the so-called Christian Life. Personally I don't think Jesus requires the public praises and affirmations that we attempt. That is a social identification construct that we feel is important, and if it helps you, then go ahead.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 20, 2012 - 02:25am PT
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IIRC, the bible tells the christians to proselytize and spread the good word, plus that the believers should welcome the skepticism if not worse of the heathens, not to mention the good-humoured sallies of us virtuous pagans. Indeed, many of them seem to have a martyr complex - they positively revel in criticism if not abuse. So notwithstanding those who say otherwise, isn't it helping complete the supposed divine mission if we occasionally respond appropriately to their sometimes irritating, smug, self-righteous, vainglorious behaviour? Whatever the cowhuggers and such might say about it?
Looking at it another way, no satan, no god.
Exposure to Jesuits causes one to think this way.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Aug 20, 2012 - 08:19pm PT
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After being captivated by many of the responses and diverse opinions in this
thread I thought that you know I have a story too. So here it goes.
When I was in high school, my track coach was a part time evangelist.
He was speaking at a Baptist Church in Pearl Mississippi and he invited me attend.
I accepted his invitation and was deeply touched by his message.
At the end of the service, he invited anyone in the congregation to step forward and dedicate their lives to Christ.
I walked up to that pulpit and shook my coaches’ hand.
He asked me, “Olaf, Do accept Jesus as your savior?”
I said, “Yes!”
Brother Renfro, the resident pastor of that church asked if I would attend the service
on the following night and I agreed!
I was filled with the power of the Holly Spirit all the next day and I was eager to
be back in that sanctuary worshiping just as hard as I possibly could!
When I arrived at East Gate Baptist Church that evening I was handed a bulletin with the
evening’s agenda printed on it.
It had reference scriptures that the evening’s message was based on.
It listed all the hymns we were to sing and where they could be found in the hymnal that was on the back of every pew.
I found something interesting on the back page of that bulletin.
There was a notice of a baptism to take place that evening and the person to be baptized was none other than ME!
I was shocked!
I found that pastor and pulled him away from what he was doing ( The Lords Work,
I’m sure) and I started to explain that I was a Methodist and that I was christened as an infant and that I was already saved !
Well now this created a glitch in the evenings schedule and since I was the
only one that they had online for the end of the show, he started to council
me very sternly!
He said" Olaf, If you are not baptized in front of this church tonight and if a car runs you down and kills you while you are walking home.
Son, You are going to HELL!"
I was shocked!
My response to him as I walked out of that place was "I'll see you there!"
Well I wasn't dunked under the water of that aquarium shrouded behind
those purple velvet drapes right behind the pulpit of that church in front of all those people that night!
None the less the words of my evangelistic track coach had real a real impact on me.
I followed up and continued to try to conduct myself in a Christian manner.
I continued to try and set a positive example in my community and at school.
Through this period I was influenced by some very powerful people that felt had the same thoughts and opinions about the love of Jesus Christ as I did.
One evening while attending an event sponsored by the church that my family had attended for generations (My grandfather built the prayer rail and alter in the sanctuary of that building) I was once again touched by the Holy Spirit!
This event was not an assembly of preachers but they were everyday people like me. They were from all walks of life and had by invitation traveled from all over the southern states to share their dynamic lay witnesses with us.
The emotion generated by these guests from had a powerful affect on me.
At the end of the program an invitation was issued to any one that would that would like
to speak.
I was terrified but felt that I had something that desperately needed to be said.
I am really not positive what it was that I said that night but there wasn't a dry eye
in the house!
After that evening I started receiving invitations with travel expenses from churches from all over the south to come and share my story with the youth of their churches.
I must admit that during that period I had some very powerful experiences that still affect
me and the way I view myself and the world around me to this very day.
This went on for quite awhile and nearly every weekend I was off to somewhere in Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Tennessee, and all over the state of Mississippi.
I met a vast amount of really great people and had a wonderful time basking in my new found celebrity status while sharing what Christ meant to me in my everyday life.
Then In Bastrop, Louisiana in a prime time worship service I was introduced
and walked up in front of all those people that had come to hear what I had
to say.
I stood there terrified and these words came out of my mouth,
"I am a hypocrite!"
I never stepped foot in another church for many years after that day!
I started questioning allot of things about organized religion.
I respect that the population needs to belong to and believe in something.
I do believe in the higher power that is in every person. "God"
Many times I have been in perilous situations and in sheer desperation after
I had exhausted all mortal avenues and resources I have lifted my head to
the sky and said "God Help Me!" and you know what, He did!
Perhaps it's like the guy that was able to lift the car in a life and death
situation, who knows?
I do know that there are channels of indefinable power and strength in each
of us.
That’s all I got to say about that.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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The so called Christians say:
"You got one life"
If you blow it you go to hell eternally.
If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior then you go to heaven eternally.
I ain't buying that ever!
They even let prisoners out of jail to try again after their term is over ......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
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Good call Braun...When Jesus was dying on the cross he let those 2 thiefs next to him off the hook..But then again they hadn't stolen any tents...
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
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Werner, Not exactly the way it works (written in the Bible).
I will try in a bit; not up to it now. Anyone else?
When Jesus was dying on the cross he let those 2 thiefs next to him off the hook...
Wrong. Jesus forgave one of the two men being crucified next to him because the one recognized Jesus as his Savior and was forgiven. The other refused and went to eternal death.
(By the way the plural for thief is thieves)
rottingjohnny, you seem to have a penchant for ridiculing people of faith. Your comments are unfailingly banal and mean spirited.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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The one-life mentality is the same perspective that burns through our natural world like a disease. No concept of future generations, because we are "Not of This World".
Well, guess what? Your children and grand-children are going to be "of this world", and you are totally fukking it up for them.
It is Imperialism from a religious standpoint 90% of the time, from what I see - burn the world for my gain.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
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Great Story O-Man!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
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James Watt was a proponent of one life imperialism and advocated burning it before you die...
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 20, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Olaf,
Awesome testimony, bro!
As i am sure you know, the HS you experienced that night was the seal of redemption confirming Himself in you. Let them guys say what or think what they want. Sounds as though they were simply trying to monopolize or use you to make them look good. Baptism is an outward demonstration to people of what happened inside your heart. The actual water baptism has no other significance then that, imo! The thief on the cross never got water baptized!
Thanks for sharing!!
BTW, you must have an awesome speaking gift of sharing your faith publicly!
edit: sorry to here of the bogus way that one d00d treated you.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 20, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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That was a well-told story, O-man. I once accepted Christ. I have done so a couple of times, simply full of warm-fuzzies, now that I think of it.
I don't think it is a big deal at all. It is only a sign, the water.
I know the presence of the Holy Spirit is with me, as a result of accepting Christ the first time...it still doesn't keep me from the doubts. St. Thomas and I share a lot. Yet he is one of the most venerated saints in the world. I learned about Mumping Day which is celebrated on his old feast, the 21st of December. It is an old custom in England to allow the poor to beg for money for Christmas presents. Just though I'd throw that in. There is a Gospel of St. Thomas, one of the apocryphal books. I haven't read it.
I did write out the entire four Gospels and the Acts in block letters, all caps, in the fifth grade. I guess I got kind of "rammed," Spider. My parents paid for it, too. Their kids' record: Three of four divorced and remarried. One illegitimate child. One married a Mormon. One married his wife's cousin. We are completely normal Catholic school kids.
Live day by day, I guess. Do a good turn daily. Show love some way to a stranger (nice thought there, Cragman). Keep in good with the Lord (Patton).
I was terribly f*#ked up when I got to Yosemite Valley in the fall of '70, having had a few months of paranoid fantasies of Satan, always announced by an orange aura in my thoughts, due to having ingested unknowingly some angel dust in a reefer. I prayed to Jesus hard. The fantasy continued for some time after that.
Then I fell on Swan Slab, about to the ground. I spotted Jesus in the corner of my eye as I began my fall. He was just floating out there in space. I call that apparition "Momentary Jesus." He apparently was there when I needed help. What else can I say? Am I wronging Jesus by questioning what he claimed, that he is the only way to the Father? All I can do is utter an apology for hypocrisy and hope to lead a good life. I got nothing better to do than to lead a good life. I practically live a monk's life as it is.
Do me a fave, everyone: drop a prayer in the box for me and others like me who have a religious educational background so that we not hold it against the ones who proseletized us while educating us that in so doing they actually kind of turned us off. I remember vividly the dog-mom (see what I mean about holding it agoinst them?)--the nun--who boasted, "Give the Church a child to teach for four years and he'll be theirs for life." I thought, well that's a load of crap.
Lots of us say that we "belong" to a religion. We don't. We belong to the one who created us. We are not slaves to relilgion or dogmatism unless we choose to be, so it seems inappropriate to say otherwise. Simply say I am Glad-to-be-here Orthodox. Or Reformed Diagnostic Awetheist. Which I am now. I just reformed my church.
As always, close with a hymn.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:46am PT
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James G. Watt said these things:
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."
and "My responsibility is to follow the Scruptures which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns."
Secretary of the Interior, 1981-1983, and a Dispensationalist Christian. (Look that up in yur Funk and Wiki. Please do, he was involved in some bizzare situations which are humorous. He is a classic example of how religion and politics do not mix.)
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Aug 21, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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They even let prisoners out of jail to try again after their term is over ......
even after they are dead?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 21, 2012 - 01:07am PT
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The Shaker Hymn, Simple Gifts--Youtube doesn't have the version by Parkening that I have on my CD. This slouch is the best of what was on offer.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
This one is for Werner, whose gifts are many, and whose service is appreciated. Thanks, WBraun!
Edit: I know very well WB can't hear this, but he gets it. He gets it.
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