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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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At this point with no response from BD or even a specific reference from a representative as to where a response can be found the company shows itself to be ruefully negligent.
Sad, but hardly a surprise to me at this point.
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SilverSnurfer
Mountain climber
SLC, UT.
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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"The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets."
I've tried to follow this when I have time because I own a pair, but I must be missing something because now the count is up to 36+ SS Sabretooth crampons broken in this fashion?
That's a hell of a lot of broken crampons if correct. I read through the ColdThistle, CascadeC.,and Gravsports threads, but the number of broken units seems to keep jumping up from a couple to "dozens" and now to "several dozen" without corresponding evidence. I'm concerned enough about this issue to suspend using my own pair, but numbers need to be represented honestly to support the case.
Allen
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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I stopped trying to keep count but from just a little looking around there are two more recent pairs that weren't on my original list of less than 2 dozen.
I'm not likely to bother with adding them all up. But maybe I should again.
Either way I have zero faith what we can document in public is even remotely what the actual return numbers at BD are.
Last year in Feb. I was told (by a BD employee who was suppose to actually know) there were less than a dozen one day, less than 2 dozen another and at least one rep said "less than a couple dozen". That was last year mind you in 2011. Not now in 2012.
It isn't like we need to make the issue any worse than it is by padding the numbers. And not like we'll ever know what the real numbers are.
My suggestion? Check your crampons in daily use.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
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"Our crampons rock!" -Peter Metcalf, when questioned on the issue by a shareholder.
Evidentially, all is well. Don't believe everything you read on the internets...
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YoungGun
climber
North
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
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Have there been any reported failings of non-Sabretooth SS crampons? Cyborgs, etc.?
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Not entirely correct there Crackers. They were "sales samples" (Belcourt's term and how the crampons and boxs are labeled) not prototypes.
Oh? Sorry, I missed that. Could you provide a link for me? Thanks. In the gravsports and cc forums, Rafael stated the crampons were prototypes. I did not see any mention of any condition stuff from Belcourt.
The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
Huh. I had free time for the interweb this morning, and reread the original CC and gravsports threads. I got the following: Rafael, maybe AThomas or his brother BThomas (I was a bit confused by the age of their crampons and the timing), iwelsted's broken 2 pairs, and some dude named Barry Blanchard who wrote 'I broke a dozen pairs of crampons on lead'. Subsequently, a guy named Forzad and another named Lindenbach have noticed something funny in their crampons. That ain't dozens. I don't doubt that people have broken stuff, I just know what i read on the forumz.
I know that I'm in the minority, but I guess that I break stuff. I find it pretty normal. I break cams, I break nuts, I have broken crampons and I have broken ice tools and cars and my heart and dreams and god knows what else. If I ever had a 'prototype' or similar, I'd probably break that too.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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The real issue is that there are several dozen more at least (as GS posts and CT data has pointed out) that have broken in the same spot that clearly are not sales samples but came through the normal retail outlets.
I for one was not thrilled to be climbing on "sales samples" with no indication from BD that they were failing on a regular basis. Even the commercial product bought at retail quickly became suspect if you were paying attention.
What the hell? So if they are 'sales samples' it is ok for them to fail? So all those BD cams that are on sale and advertised as cosmetic seconds on are made to fail? When it comes to climbing gear, sh#t has to work. Or be recalled if it doesn't...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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I think their entire current line is stainless at least for the main frames. Cyborg, Stinger, Sabretooth, etc.
I have a gob of BD crampons (gob being somewhere around 6 pairs), non stainless. First gen Sabretooths that show a bunch of wear, but, haven't seem to need replacing (really like them, in fact, especially for cobbles ie Maple Canyon). Alas, my current pair are Bionics...(gettin' kinda nubby). So, sort of have a dog in this hunt as I'm in the market for a new pair (for next season by now).
I'd be curious to know if the dates on the busted models are in the 2010 only range, or, are failures being seen in the 2011 and 2012 date range as well.
Dane, any thoughts? Honestly, this seemed so "last year", last year...and I'm wondering if their "in line" type tweaks shored up the problem or if its still a dealio.
I do think its a bit of a bummer that all the photo's of the wildly blown up pair of Sabretooths are of a "sample" that someone offloaded at MEC and a guy bought as used. Almost a bit unfair. I mean, really, if I got gear for free, had an issue with it, you can bet I wouldn't be pissin' in my cereal bowl and broadcasting. And folks that get said gear shouldn't be selling or giving it to anyone else (maybe they'll rethink who they dole stuff out to).
Such a bully pulpet here sometimes...I can't hardly blame BD for not stickin' their heads in the meat grinder. Rough crowd.
Anybody done a date versus flaw comparison?
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 10, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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The eternal question once again rears its head..... Coz asking, "Who are you?"
LO-FUKKIN-L!!!! This sh#t is better than TV!
Metcalf Clock
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Apr 10, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
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FWIW....and you can take it for that...
From what I have seen and what's been reported no issues worth mentioning with any of the stainless crampons that have changable front points. Cyborgs and Stingers seem to have a clean bill of health outside the normal failures. What ever normal failure is. No one questioning that happens with ice gear. I just don't believe the discussion here is about "normal" breakage.
Brian, I had thought (hoped the issue long dead) the problem fixed last year. But with no info on what production dates or "series" of horizontals were a problem...impossible for me to answer. I was really surprised when 3 or 4 pair "popped" up again in during spring of 2012.
I do know both 1st and 2nd* (added material*) gen sabertooths have failed in the same manner.
Which is why I wrote the "dead horse" comment which started this thread.
Every single pair of broken crampons I know of have gone straight back to BD and were replaced....even the 2nd hand ones. And the ones labeled by BD as broken "by owner neglect". I even tried to buy most of them at full retail to no avail just for my own education and to check the date stamps on them.
Unfair? Might well be. But I know I was not being told the whole truth when I dared to question what was going on and still had "sales samples" I was climbing on.
Frankly that scared me. Which is why I continued to bring the issue to public light. Been a lot easier and simplier if BD had come clean in public last Feb. For what ever reason (good or bad) they have remained silent. And crampons keep turning up broken.
My suggestion?..if you own them, check them, and then decide for yourself how you will use them.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
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I'm nobody coz. Middle aged piss poor climber that developed a passion for it after a natural progression from backpacking in the outdoors (Should I really be taking this shortcut on this glacier in S. America without any skills?). Took both a rock climbing and mountaineering course in New Zealand. I've barely lead up to 5.8 trad and sport into the mid to high 10's only if it's as soft as the routes in Maple. Wish I had started sooner in life but detours in to horse training, the Marines, and fly fishing stalled the process. Really enjoyed myself getting back to Red Rock and Owens River Gorge last week and looking forward to the Leap opening up early this year. Hope also to get back to City of Rocks (ID) and see if Smith is as fun as I've heard. Definitely will get back to Yosemite and the Facelift this year. I started reading this forum after watching a rope failure (manufactured by Beal, sold by Black Diamond) in a local gym many years ago.
Your skill, experience, and knowledge is and will always be vastly superior to mine. I have just noticed that you rarely let a chance to bash BD pass you buy and this pattern has existed for years. The list of BD equipment that you have bashed (and called unsafe and said it needed to be recalled) includes harnesses, slings, ascenders, and now crampons. All with very little evidence as I see it. I understand that you see it entirely differently and I want to see the evidence......
I also expect you to continue to call me names, call me out, and threaten to beat the sh#t out me as you have done to others multiple times on this forum. Everyone here has seen the same pattern. If they want to read about it all the have to do is log in and review your posts or mine.
I, like most everyone here, am waiting for a response by BD and hope it will be in an official form in the way of a technical memo. I don't expect a recall. I would expect it to reiterate things like checking your gear before and after use, annual inspection by the owner, and maybe an expected lifetime of the crampons. We have all seen these things on the tags when we buy gear. How many of us actually do it? I know I don't do it enough and I was shocked to discover how gummed up my cams were last year when I bought some new ones. Yes, they were BD C4's...........
Have to get some work done now.
Erik
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 10, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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Coz has a short fuse but also a good heart and a lot of savvy.
The question remains; do these pons actually rock?
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SeanH
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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Why not just buy Grivel and call it a day?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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coz said
Labrat,
Why are you attacking me? I have no beef with BD or Metcalf. Why do you insist I do.
Read the thread title, I want an answer like everyone else.
I've made BD lots of money, but have problems with a few of their products.
I know for a fact a few flaws, I don't expose them because I want to give BD a chance to fix them.
frankly, as a disinterested observer, you are schizophrenic.
read what you wrote on this thread, every post. you want to toss Metcalf and BD under the bus but there is no proof.
you post extremely negatively, then wonder why people question you?
frankly, my initial (without positive proof) reply is that your lycra was too tite BITD.
but there s no proof in that either......
simple advice from me? if of course you give a sh#t? stop being a self centered as#@&%e.
and by the way, the last person i have met who should dis on ethics is RO. tell us about your wish for carving handholds in virgin sandstone????
this thread is sickening.......
BTW, i have 2 engineering degrees, and know that BD probably did f*#k up, and i definitely know they screwed the pooch on the response. but some of you are real f*#k ups.....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 10, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
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Well Erik, I wish that I'd been paying better attention in class when Coz ripped their ascenders:-) I just bumped that thread with my sad face due to the late (and now 1st hand and personal) learning experience. Just bump me awake next time I fall asleep will ya? LOL!
For myself, I had a short dealing with Bill Belencourt on Black Diamond C3 cams and found it very positive and informative. Our conversation wound up discussing the Camalots vs the newly released DMM Dragons which they did a shitty job of trying to imitate the BDs. Actually, Belencourt didn't say anything like that. He said that the dual stem copy validated the BD design, and he was discussing the slings. After we had discussed the engineering choices each company had made (for those unfamiliar, BD does a fat nylon sling on a thumbloop and DMM does a skinny and extendable 8mm Dyneema sling. He said (paraphrasing again here,don't chop my head off) : "How many climbers do you know have replaced their slings?". "Uhhh", thinking of my original ridged friends with the webbing I put on when they were new,or the Chouinard Chocks from the 70's with the same sling material I'd tied on them then...."not many"...
"Right", and we know that too, which is why we considered that and then put on stuff that weighs insignificantly more but will last many many more years"....
Good choice I'm thinking.....and on and on it went. All good stuff and I came away with a better feeling of the design choices they made, and a better love of Black Diamond cams.
On this discourse on this thread, I think I agree with both Dane and Graham. Keep the personal attacks out of it and lets focus on as factual of a discussion as we can get. I remember hearing some guys breaking a pick on a earlier Simond ice tool in France (I think it was a Chacal model) and actually taking it to the MAN himself at the factory, a Mr Simond, who got angry and his gear being dissed and then refused to replace it. Saying (in French) they abused it. It broke all by itself just climbing, and it was heat treated chromolly. LOL. Oh, they still climbed on Simond tools, it was otherwise great stuff.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Apr 10, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
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Labrat... abandon thread.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 11, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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Chill Werner, he might have good vision but the guy misspelled "tight". lol
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
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I look forward to reading what BD has to say.
My gut tells me it WON'T be "Here at BD we have looked at our choice of stainless steel in crampons as being a bad one."
Nope.
It will be a variation of "Our crampons rock!" or "We sell thousands of crampons and a few catastrophically breaking isn't a big deal. Gear breaks."
But, I do look forward to reading whatever it is they say. My fingers are crossed that it will be something that puts climbers safety first and the quarterly bottom line second.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Apr 11, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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Seanh's proposal is the quickest and most effective way to
get a company to change it's product.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!