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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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And so: no, the overwhelming majority of "us" Italians doesn't love Maestri. In fact, the overwhelming majority simply doesn't know who Cesare Maestri is (or was). The rest is divided into a larger camp of people who hates him (for various reasons) and a minority who recognize him as a controversial character but also one of the greatest rock climbers produced by the Dolomites scene.
It's no secret (except for those in bad faith, or those who are very poorly informed) that there's very little love lost between Maestri and a lot of Italian climbers (particularly of his own home turf). In part because Maestri used to be genuinely difficult to deal with (brash, arrogant, often rude and almost impossibly un-PC), in part because of jealousy, and in part because of (I've been told) reasons that have nothing to do with climbing. And there's a lot of people that would simply dance on Maestri's grave and is looking forward to see him be publicly humiliated. Personally, I don't like people being lynched if there's no apparent good reasons for the lynching, but I suspect that if so many people seem to dislike his (former) ways, he must have done something to put himself in trouble.
But the problem his - that's EXACTLY what happened to Bonatti or Claudio Corti... they got publicly humiliated by people who thought they knew better. And with time, it was recognized their accuser were wrong, and had acted for ignorance, malice and stupidity.
Luca's words here bear repeating.
Also Luca offered to translate important Italian posts, not Spanish ones. This is a California site, after all. Anyone who can't read a bit of Spanish should just go home.
heh
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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That's Spanish, Alpineman, not Italian. And my spanish is not good enough that I'd attempt translating.
To all the Italians posting, thanks mostly for your input. But let's not compare a few bolts with the stupidity and loss of life from Bush.
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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@AM: I can translate Italian into English, not every language out there into English!
@Steve: You're right. I ask fellow Italians here to refrain to put politics into this thread. Both communities will be grateful for that.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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Since there are a few Italian speakers/readers here...
How about a little help with translation?
Not that there's any connection to all this...ha ha...
Thanks!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
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From Google translate, and not 100% correct, but close:
Edit: Colin and Rolo, if this was not a real interview, or really badly translated, speak up and I'll delete the translation.
Double Edit: Deleted. There are enough hard feelings on this, without even small mis-translations contributing to it. Better to let the protagonists speak for themselves in the native language.
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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@Brian in SLC:
"Dear Bridwell,
growing old, I've learned that is often better to know someone personally, before judging him. With esteem and admiration, Cesare Maestri"
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MH2
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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I like that Google says that Rolo said that visitors (Hayden and Jason?) put a lot of batteries in those mountains.
Probably he actually said they put a lot of energy?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
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Luca Signorelli
Thanks for the translation.
That was nice note from Maestri ....
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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Luca Signorelli
Thanks for the translation.
That was nice note from Maestri ....
Big thanks! I couldn't figure out the handwriting.
Yep, nice words. Might apply here too? Hmmm....
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
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With apologies to author(s) if I've made any mistakes (I'm bilingual, but in a hurry...). Too much to translate it fully, but in a nutshell:
It was not premeditated. The decision was made on the summit.
In town on the 19th local climbers gathered at Puesto Sanitario (health center?) declared their objection to the violation of this cultural and historical treasure...
Police went to where climbers were staying (?) and confiscated (est more than 100) bolts.
Climbers had discussed possible repercussions, but had not expected local climber's reaction.
(Jason) "We don't care what the rest think of us, we made this decision and we're prepared to live with it. There will never be consensus regarding which side is right, so we simply did it"
Colin discusses the history of this type of bolts, pointing out that they allow you to go anywhere you want, their controversial use and other routes where they've been used in excess (and chopped).
Why? CH: Thought difficult to explain, the reasons are clear to climbers - respect for the mountain... HK: "Basically to return the mountain to its natural state.
CH: My opinion is that this discussion is partially about climbing, but also about nationalism... Many would not be angry if H & J were Argentinian... And the reality is that there are no locals in El Chalten - everyone is an outsider.
RG: The bolt discussion is a philosophical one. It's about what the mountain means and why we go there. The bolts are a shortcut to something we cannot otherwise attain...
Doesn't removing the bolts prevent those who need them from climbing the mtn? RG: well then let's put up an escalator... It's a gray (vague) line, because it's not a well defined sport. Maestri clearly crossed that line...
(not sure if this is Rolo):
In the end, it's a question of respect and of respecting the spaces (places). The bolts belong in a museum, the history continues to exist there, history goes on.
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ALPINEMAN
Trad climber
bogota
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
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summary... a stupid act
but their sponsor what they say?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jan 21, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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stevep,
google has significant errors in there, i'd delete that "translation."
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tarallo
Trad climber
italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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what i can say about America and Americans,for my personal experience, is the best of best and my dream is one day to go there to live dear kinobi.....and putting the act of two di..heads on sometthing against americans is simply stupid and...at the end is always the same thing..i would like to see kinobi wich american gear he use....
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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@Brian:
I think what may apply here is "You may well judge the deed, but it's very difficult to judge the doer if you don't get to know him first".
Which is a wise rule to follow in general...
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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For all those who keep talking about "Americans" (which is funny because there's one American involved here, one Canadian, and the biggest supporter and communicator of news is an Argentine), would you be less upset if the bolt chopping had been done by say, Ueli Steck and Stephan Glowacz? Or would we be hearing about "you Swiss" and "you Germans"?
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
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well, very interesting to see italians writing here. i commend them for giving our site a foreign flavor and opinion. it demonstrates how big and international this issue is.
in 2007, in researching for an article to justify leaving the bolts in place, i interviewed several american climbers that had actually climbed the compressor route. i asked them if they thought it should be chopped. in every case except one(bean bowers), they felt the route should stay. here are some names of those interviewed, and a soundbite from them.
alan kearny "i don't think it's right to deface history"
jim bridwell "i think that would be a real shame" on if the bolts got removed
mark synnot "for better or for worse, it's part of the history of the sport"
paul gagner "I think it's bullshit that people impose standards of today on routes of yesterday"
greg crouch he has written his own comments on this site about feeling uncomfortable with the chopping of bolts on this routes, as climbing it was, for him, one of the greatest experiences of his life.
dave nettle dave was Bean's partner on the climb
john middendorf i did not interview john but he is/was against chopping
that's seven against the chopping and only one for removing it. this repesents only a fourth or fifth of americans who have climbed the compressor route, and sadly we have lost a couple(shipley/fowler), but i think these climbers opinions should be weighted heavily because they have been up there, clipped the bolts, and seen the overbolting first hand.
steve schneider
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
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I posted this elsewhere but it fits here too. Let's stop being polite and call Maestri's "route" for what it is: a botch job retro-bolt extension of the 1968 British attempt that, like that attempt, doesn't actually make it to the summit (but gets somewhat closer). Really no different than if someone forced their way up the North Ridge of Latok I past the Lowe/Lowe/Kennedy/Donini highpoint by drilling bolts most of the way, still didn't make the summit, chopped part of their route on retreat from the new summitless highpoint, and called the climb a success.
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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@Black Spider: it that's true, well, one can start to say, for instance, that the Cassin route at the Walker Spur of the Jorasses "A botch job retro piton/aid extension of the original Charlet/Croux 1923 attempt" (because Armand Charlet and Evariste Croux tried to climb it first all free and without pitons, while the reason Cassin did get through was that he used a large quantity of pitons in spots like the 90 meters dihedral or the grey slabs). Cassin and C. did summit indeed, but still "extension" was.
However, don't expect this attitude to be considered popular in most of the climbing community. Right now the Cassin spur is regularly climbed all free, but no one would dream to remove all the pitons and say that Cassin never climbed it!
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BlackSpider
Ice climber
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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"Probably the most disrespectful, shameful act I've seen in 35 years of climbing."
That seems a bit excessive. At least they climbed the route rather than doing it by jumaring other people's fixed lines.
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Jan 21, 2012 - 01:52pm PT
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I second also that a comparison with Stefan Glowacz is a very poor and uninformed on. Glowacz may feel strongly in relation to bolts (as I do, for what's worth) but he would never act in such an irresponsible way.
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