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ReggieW

Gym climber
different places
Sep 21, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
My hope in the argument is to appeal to a younger generation, and if anything I say loosens unexamined calcified positions, even for a moment, then there is little more I could ask for. And if not, then I will console myself with having tried.

To provide a bit of validation, Rich, your posts in this and other threads are certainly effective and thought-provoking. Some worth printing and re-reading. This is coming from one of the 'younger generation.'

Can't say I have a definite opinion on what should be done now that the offending bolts are gone, but it is difficult for me to believe that their removal was driven purely by compassionate respect for ethics and for the stone itself.


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Sep 21, 2011 - 09:21pm PT
Squeeze jobs suck. Especialy when they are close enough to a previous commiting line that the climber on the commiting line is offered a chanche to bail out and clip the new bolts.

Tom Rosecans wrote a piece in the new ADK guide about preserving the charecter of Rojers rock and then he went and retro bolted a squeeze job that ruined the first pitch of Screaming Meany ( my favorite climb on the cliff) and drasticly altered the commitment level of the classic little finger by offering bolted belays the whole way up a line that the beginning leadrer should have been forced to learn to belay from gear.

A perfect example of do as I say not as I do....
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 21, 2011 - 09:27pm PT
Tomcat,

If it had four bolts I would be displeased.

Here is my explanation: Currently, I put up a lot of sport climbs. I think of Eric Fazio-Ricard each time someone compliments me on a well bolted route of mine because he is the one who taught me the subtleties of a well bolted route. When I mark a route for bolting I place pieces of tape where I want the bolts. Sometime I have spent up to 5hrs moving these pieces of tape to where I finalize the bolts. I try to place them in such places to motivate a climber pushing his limit that will after cliping the bolt feel inclined to go again. But I seldom use extra bolts beyond what is reasonable fall.

By my criteria 2 pieces of protection on Superpin are scarce but adequate.

I think that some of the other people that were working on Superpin before Barber's infringement of their project could have drilled the 2nd bolt while on lead and all this would be different.

But I would leave them (the 4 bolts). It is not my turf or views to fight for any particular change in direction on this. I am not a local to that area anymore. I suspect that some there would listen to me, at least my speech, but to get a unamimous following I would have had to have done things differently in past and been some else.




mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 21, 2011 - 09:54pm PT
I think there are a lot of locals that want no retro bolting or rap bolting in the needles. I was 8 when the bolt was put in and it has been there my whole climbing life about 20 years, but I also know for a fact that there is a lot more people locally that want safe routes and are into having a more bolts is better attitude. I think it would be a losing proposition to start chopping bolts even if we were so inclined and I also think that this is likely to make that group say f it and more of this is going to happen. I was just starting to climb and I was hearing about Ken Nichols and all the chopping and rebolting that was taking place on the east coast so I chose to not get into to any of it. I know that there is a huge contingent of people that climbed here from all over for many consecutive years are they not part of the community as well. So to call out the locals or a new generation to take up a petty fight that most of us had nothing to do with smacks a little bit of hypocracy when your not willing to take up the fight yourself. How many years have you climbed here Rich.

Pat again I take exception that you are saying that some people's routes deserve more protection than others. That is just as weak as the argument that Henrey is an ahole even though people don't know him. Who decides whos routes are important, are you the committee for that?
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 21, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
Mike, if you think 8 bolts in a short climb that had no bolts is a petty fight, then it will indeed be hard for us to communicate. My call to the current generation is to address that and the analogous degradations, not the Superpin fiasco, which is a tabloid event that overshadows much more important issues.

You think I'm hypocritical because I advocate as forcefully as I can from 2,000 miles away but don't show up in the RV Kerwin imagined with my crowbar? You'll need to have a chat with DMT, who has already opined that no one at that distance has any business messing with the local pro. I've argued long and hard and consistently about this, while still acknowledging the primacy of local control. That's called principles in my book, not hypocrisy.

I've never kept records and am not too good on dates in my past. I climbed in the Needles for 2-3 weeks every summer for perhaps 10-15 years. I think my first visit was in 1962 or 1963. Piana's guide says I did the Needle's Eye in 1964, which suggests I must have been there that year. During those years, I repeated a very large proportion of the existing routes and was privileged to be able to add a few. I think it is a special place, with something unique to offer the climbing world, but what is exceptional about Needles climbing will never be found on vertical and less than vertical sport climbs on nubbin faces. No one will go to the Needles for that, its not what the place is all about, and I suspect from your various posts and your adventures with your son that you understand this as well or better than I do.

Perhaps you feel personally attacked by my remarks? The concept of "locals" is that there is some group that takes some responsibility for stewardship. Without this, the concept of "local autonomy" is empty. But not every local has or needs or can be part of that group. If follows that my comments are not and cannot be addressed to any one person. You are not obliged to explain or defend yourself (which also means you don't have to attack me, the only win-win so far identified in this sorry mess).
WBraun

climber
Sep 21, 2011 - 11:01pm PT
Hhhmmmmmmmmm

Interesting.

Looks like Henry just plain said "this is bullsh'it" and chopped the bolt.

Tough sh'it!

Sometimes that's all that's needed.

Afterwards ..... you get threads like this ........
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 21, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
Rich, I have very much respect for you, Henry, Dingus and all those that poored their heart and soul into this area. I don't travel far from home a lot and love the adventure that the needles offer, but as has been said before there are no rules other than to leave a route as the FA's left it and that is just an ethical debate not a law. So a non local that climbs here often would be just as able to chop a bolt as a local and I feel you are calling out people for not doing things you could have just as easily done your self. I in no way think you are a hypocrite for having strong values but I think you need to watch calling out other people for doing something you were not willing to do yourself, especially when you had the chance when this cotroversy was not decades old. I just feel this whole mess is going to screw up someplace I really enjoy and it is in my back yard. My guess is our ethics are pretty similar. I am pretty sure that there is a large contengent of locals that do not have those same ethics, but it is not just locals. I also feel that rap bolting, retro bolting and the like have been done in the needles by locals and non locals alike so why would chopping be any different. I think it is the climbing community that is active in an area that is local not just those that live here. I would say the climbing community that regularly gets out that actually lives in the hills might not number much more than one hundred, but the number of regular visitors might be about the same number. If this would have been done years ago it would have worked itself out and would be no threat to access today. That is really what I am concerned with. Like I said I have not and probably will not ever do superpin with the bolt or not. I was probably not good enough but I very much think you are right that the needles would not be very special if the drills are let loose.

I hope that other people in the Black Hills and throughout the country are paying attention because I think history should be preserved, but I am not going to take a chizle to the bolts that I know weren't there origionally. I know that that means the retro bolts stay and it is a slowly losing propostion, but I do feel that chopping at this point is only going to lead to worse problems.

I truely have felt like I have learned something from this thread and feel I would rather debate this than talk about politics or someother BS that gets discussed here so often. At least we are talking about climbing, and maybe it will help stop the retro bolting and rap bloting in a place where it doesn't belong. If it doesn't this local will still not chop bolts as I feel it is will just end up costing more than it helped in the long run.

My petty argument comment has something to do with going to an activation cerimony for the local national guard today. I work with veteran students at the local university and it was tough watching mothers, fathers,sons, daughter, sisters and brothers spend the last few moments with their love ones that they can for the next year. They will be leaving for Afganistan on Friday and I got to know quite a few very well over the last several years. They are putting their lives on the line to fight for something bigger than themselves. Those are important issues. Though I love the Needles it would not bother me a bit if all routes in the needles had infinate bolts if in return all these people could return home safe.

Werner yeah bolt was chopped tough sh*t, bolt replaced tough sh*t, bolt chopped tough sh*t, bolt replaced tough sh*t, ect., ect., ect. Just something I don't want to see where I live maybe it is OK in Yosemite.

Lastly, Rich one of the best routes I have done in the last few years in the needles was a route you and Kamps put up on the big side of Spire 4. Probably one of the biggest routes that goes straight up and down in the needles and there was not one bolts, that is what the needles are all about for me.Thanks for setting a good example for others to follow.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 22, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Mike, just a point of information. The bolt on Superpin was placed after my last visit to the Needles. I was never in a position to chop it in the days/years after it was placed.

And yes, the whole thing is a tempest in a tea pot compared to things that really matter in life. In that sense, I agree with you that it inconsequential. But some of us, even though we have in no sense been professional climbers or even dedicated dirtbags, have still spent a lot of our lives climbing; in my case next June will be my 55th anniversary. This has warped our perspective; we see things as important that are really of little consequence. In some ways it is an embarrassment to care so much about little pieces of metal in little holes while so many are oppressed, so many live in poverty, so many are starving, and our country appears to be wandering from the fundamental principles of political compromise that underpin democracy.

But there you have it. I care about the effin' bolts. Not Superpin so much at this point, but about the rest of what seems to be going on. Can anyone do anything about it? Maybe not. Will the controversy spill over to people in authority and cause access to be restricted? It seems possible; there are different models for what might happen, but in general sportsmen who have been incapable of restraining their impacts often end up having someone do it for them, and when that happens it is rarely pretty.
Patrick Oliver

Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
Sep 22, 2011 - 12:18am PT
It amazes me how people translate some of the things we say.

Mike M, I don't recall saying "some people's routes
deserve more protection than others." Can't imagine
which of my comments could
get that interpretation. When people retro-bolt, THEY decide
that route needs or deserves more protection. I also see
over and over strange
interpretations to which Rick's comments are ascribed. He is careful
and clear, however deep.... If I said anything along those lines, well,
that wasn't the intended meaning at all.

I think I'll sign off this thread, for all this sort of thing
that seems to take place. Think I'll join John Gill and exit stage
left.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 22, 2011 - 12:32am PT
But yes
in some ideal world it would be best to have a climb remain
what it was, especially if it's a route done by a true master,
such as Royal or Henry.
Pat no disrespect but again responding to this comment and the previous one about major climbers and my feeling thay you are saying that the routes true masters put up somehow deserve to be considered more than routes others that have done.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 22, 2011 - 01:12am PT
Oh by the way I heard that the west butress route on Outer Outlet has been retro bolted. Just hearsay on my part but I got it from a fairly reliable source as far as I know. I will do my best to point this behavior out on this forum in the hopes that this activity will be curtailed, but that is as far as I am willing go.
sethsquatch76

Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Sep 22, 2011 - 06:07am PT
QuoIn looking over these different responses there clearly is a line of division between the old and new and the difference is so great that the new can't even imagine or don't want to consider the old orientation of "earning" a route by way of competence, risk management, and self mastery (containing fear). We can be sure the new orientation came out of gym climbing, where the point is to do moves. Why would one risk anything in a gym - or outdoors, for that matter? What has risk got to do with climbing, the physical movement? Why would anyone in their right mind want to risk anything when the obvious thing is to slug in a bolt. So easy, right?

The orientation in the past was that boldness and courage were virtues - and this tradition lives on in spades with all the high bouldering and soloing going on. But the old on-sight ethos, where risk management was a real factor, has largely been forgotten because no one or at least very few grew up with this mindset.

People grew up with grid bolted routes. Why should they be denied a fine experience and a fine route because some arrogant "daredevil" ran the rope?
They're berating the very things that used to energize the game for a majority of climbers.

Things change.

But I'd still hate to see the old testpieces bolted up. They don't take up that much real estate.

JL te Here

JL,
I cant help but to take offense to your above argument....... Yeah gym climbers run rampant and overwhelm the moderates and well protected routes, but please dont stereotype all us fellas sub 40 (or 50 or 60). The majority of the gym climbers you speak of could not fathom the idea of doing a new route or retro-bolting an existing line. Everone I know who owns a drill, has put there time in. Pretty close minded for such a deep philosopher.

I didn't grow up in the gym. I didn't grow up with grid bolted routes. I would wager you have touched more plastic than I. If you are not paying me, I generally will not repeat routes, I love the onsight!

Dont you worry JL, plenty of us still living the dream!

In my opinion this was a selfish, arrogant, attention seeking bolt chop. Weird circumstances, that's for sure. And if Henry was holding a grudge for this long.........I worry for his happiness.

Seth Zaharias
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Sep 22, 2011 - 07:54am PT
Mike M

Hey Mike,

I wouldn't worry too much about this single incident instigating a cascade of bolting/chopping episodes in your local area.
My guess is there is only a handful of folks reading this forum. This type of thing has happened up here at Cathedral Ledge in the past and quickly died away.
I have really enjoyed some of the dialogue here and hope that it results in a thoughtful editorial in some climbing magazine, NOT mentioning this specific bolt on Superpin, but re-iterating the general accepted philosophy that "existing routes need to remain in the state which they were originally done".
I know there have been articles published in the past on this subject, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to reinforce this philosophy by a major article in a widely read publication.
If this minor incident in the Needles precipitates an editorial to be published in a widely read magazine, the overall outcome would be positive.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 22, 2011 - 08:52am PT
mike m,

it is very hard to get action from mere words. Look at all the money spent in advertising. If anyone could figure out a way to get action from mere words we would be under their verbal control. Peoples minds have evolved to incorporate ideas with a grain of salt and more. And those that haven't probably have high blood pressure and some of those are tooting a gun and on the hunt. You take the talk of this forum's action generating power far too seriously.

Whatever rules we make, people are going to figure out ways around them that allow them to benefit more. The days of herd rule are over. The cell phone (and internet some) makes cliques work. Foolish rules with arbitrary boundaries certainly are at risk. The Needles does have a bunch of petty little rules, enforced by no one but talked about by most as if they were the law. If every time one of these petty rules is broken, generating tension in you, you are going to be an upset man, perhaps until you see the herd mentality they originate from. Each faction wants to control more than they have the enforcing power when we are talking public land.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 22, 2011 - 08:56am PT
Steve A,

who reads magazines? Herd mentality.

B. Scarpelli and I talked about this (magazine editorials) recently. Some 22 year old with a BA in English telling us how things "should" be done?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Laramie
Sep 22, 2011 - 09:20am PT
rgold,

do we want to preserve our ways or our accomplishments?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 22, 2011 - 10:46am PT
IMO:

It's kind of strange to come back decades later and chop a bolt, but since he did the FA it's well within his rights.

Local style/ethics are for a locale not for locals. On public land anyway. That is different areas have different types of climbing that all climbers contribute to, so it's not really about who it's about where. Of course locals are there more often and contribute more so they get more say, but they move on, get old, etc. And international areas like Yosemite have few long time locals in relations to the thousands of visitors. The rock type and history contribute to the local style as much as who climbs there.

Different areas have different styles just like different climbers enjoy different types of climbing. And that's a great thing IMO. There's nothing wrong with someone like Sharma who learned to climb in a gym and sends the hardest lines on the planet that happen to be bolted. There are still young guys who are into onsight, head game, run out climbing. There's room for both and it's cool when different areas provide different types of opportunities.

The Needle's old climbs are definitely ground up trad climbs, and should be left as such for those that want that experience.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Sep 22, 2011 - 10:57am PT
I think you guys are probably right, too much time sitting at a desk staring at a computer screen and not enough time actually climbing as of late. I haven't even touched a rock for two weeks.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Sep 22, 2011 - 11:01am PT
Another 5 star Rgold post:
...the whole thing is a tempest in a tea pot compared to things that really matter in life. In that sense, I agree with you that it inconsequential. But some of us, even though we have in no sense been professional climbers or even dedicated dirtbags, have still spent a lot of our lives climbing; in my case next June will be my 55th anniversary. This has warped our perspective; we see things as important that are really of little consequence. In some ways it is an embarrassment to care so much about little pieces of metal in little holes while so many are oppressed, so many live in poverty, so many are starving, and our country appears to be wandering from the fundamental principles of political compromise that underpin democracy.

But there you have it. I care about the effin' bolts. Not Superpin so much at this point, but about the rest of what seems to be going on. Can anyone do anything about it? Maybe not. Will the controversy spill over to people in authority and cause access to be restricted? It seems possible; there are different models for what might happen, but in general sportsmen who have been incapable of restraining their impacts often end up having someone do it for them, and when that happens it is rarely pretty.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 22, 2011 - 11:08am PT
For reference....
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1615196/Route-Ownership-sermon-412
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