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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Of course not, John.
Your last response seems to imply that since unions enjoy a different influence on the political system, corporations should, too. I can't imagine that the Founding Fathers intended to see our governmental system extend individual rights to such things as unions or corporations- 'aggregations' of individuals.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Isn't the accepted abbreviation "AOTBE" - All Other Things Being Equal? At least it's English.
Brought to you by LAUVLEL - Lawyers Against Unnecessary and Vexatious use of Latin in Everyday Language.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:12am PT
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That's her contention, Kevin, although the paper to which she alludes hasn't been published yet.
What she alludes to, but doesn't address explicitly, is the differences in types of spending (or, for that matter, types of taxes). Transfer payments and income taxes reduce the incentive to earn. Government spending on essential infrastructure and basic research, on the other hand, generally has the same expansionary effect as any other investment spending.
It's this differentiation between types of taxation and types of spending that's missing in the budgetary debate. If our goal is to expand employment, we need to expand GDP. Since our funds to do so are limited (unless we want to move the Parthenon to Washington D.C.), we need to avoid tax increases and expenditure cuts that are particularly contractionary. There's more consensus on what those are, at least among professional economic forecasters, than most people think.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:16am PT
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The real question is why are we all posting here on a Friday night in summer? I at least have an excuse (I hurt my hand in a leader fall three weeks ago, and I still can't climb)?
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 02:43am PT
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The rigor of the arguments varies with the forum.
John
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 08:12am PT
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"nothing the British Empire did to its subject peoples has been as total and catastrophic as what a post-great Britain did to its own..."
read the rest to see the inevitable consequences of the liberal dream; then, consider: barry said in 2008 that under his policies energy prices would "necessarily skyrocket", and he continues to push programs that will continue to increase energy prices
more from steyn:
“'A man of 21 with learning disabilities has been granted taxpayers’ money to fly to Amsterdam and have sex with a prostitute.'
Hey, why not? “He’s planning to do more than just have his end away,” explained his social worker. “Refusing to offer him this service would be a violation of his human rights.”
Why do they need a Dutch hooker? Just another hardworking foreigner doing the jobs Britons won’t do? Given the reputation of English womanhood, you’d have thought this would be the one gig that wouldn’t have to be outsourced overseas.
While the British Treasury is busy writing checks to Amsterdam prostitutes, one-fifth of children are raised in homes in which no adult works — in which the weekday ritual of rising, dressing, and leaving for gainful employment is entirely unknown. One tenth of the adult population has done not a day’s work since Tony Blair took office on May 1, 1997."
consider: our unemployment hovers at 9% while libs and barry continue to promote longer unemployment benefits (as if three years isn't enough) and claim ridiculous "rights" (pa's cell phone distribution) that will continue to drain public coffers, all while continuing to push programs that cut jobs
so, either libs are too stupid to learn from history or the example of others or they really do want to destroy america...i'm open to other explanations
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2011 - 09:15am PT
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Britain has been on this inevitable course for well over one hundred years.
Well documented
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Tocqueville_rr2.pdf
so, either libs are too stupid to learn from history or the example of others or they really do want to destroy America...I'm open to other explanations
Well, pick one.
I'm going climbing.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:04am PT
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Ricky, OMG!
John, Unions, on the other hand, give virtually all of their cash to Democrats. Their membership is not nearly as overwhelmingly Democratic as their donations. I know plenty of Republican union members, many of whom joined solely because their work required it, who are totally unrepresented.
That's strange. The union I'm in is heavily Republican, for some reason. They seem represented to me. They get to vote in the union election. They get the same benefits, or cuts in benefits anymore, as everyone else.
Why shouldn't unions donate to Democrats? Name a Republican who has proposed a worker friendly piece of legislation.
These guy vote Republican in every election, which I don't get. It's like clockwork, by the time a Republican has been president for a few years, they are all out of work. I guess they don't like paying taxes, and when a Republican is in office, there is no work, so they aren't paying taxes.
Sorry to hear about your hand! Are you working on the left-handed repertoire?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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Unions are another reason our jobs are going overseas. They make unreasonable demands and demand ridiculous pensions that ultimately cost their employers.
Why wouldn't a company send jobs overseas?
And don't give me the crap about worker's rights. There are plenty of laws and regulations in place to protect workers from unsafe/unfair treatment from employers.
I work in manufacturing. No union. Fair salary. Good medical. 401k that the employer kicks a bit into.
Maybe it's the unions killing our jobs...or at least contributing to their demise.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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"I just deleted my last two posts because this site is no place for climbing
experiences."
Good call. I did the same. No sense muddying up this place with OT climbing topics.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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And you really think unions are driving jobs overseas? Proof? Links?
No. Just common sense.
Unions served a purpose BITD. They are no longer needed, as I said before.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:49am PT
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He's just parroting the corporate line, hedge, without putting any thought into it. Our CEOs make 500 time what their workers make, maybe that's why we can't afford to manufacture here?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 13, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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This union thing works on several levels.
You have your union of employees who work in a certain private sector. This usually works out pretty well. They and the company are in a somewhat adversarial but at the same time mutually dependent situation. The union can negotiate on behalf of the workers but does not want to kill the goose…
Then you have unions where the members work for companies like GM, which have over the years become political establishments in their own right, operating under an understanding with government that if they get into serious trouble they will get bailed out. The problem is that both the unions and the corporations are in on this, so there is less incentive for the union to have much concern for the health of the company.
Finally you have unionized government workers. In this situation you have a corrupt situation where the unions contribute to the campaign funds of the very people they will then “negotiate” with for how much of the public’s money they can have.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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Our CEOs make 500 time what their workers make, maybe that's why we can't afford to manufacture here?
Yeah, that's another problem...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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That's the problem with your opinion on unions, blue - you think CEO pay is another problem, when it's the same problem.
That's what I meant. Part of the same problem of outsourcing.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Kris,
If the capitalists hadn't acted like, well, capitalist, there would never have been a need for unions.
To equate corporations and unions seems wrong to me. Corporations are controlled by at most a very few individuals. Unions are democratically run institutions. Yes, you can point out some cases of corruption. That never happens in the corporate world and is only found in unions, I know.
But if you don't like the way the union is run, you change it. Look up the history of the Bakery and Confectionary Workers for an example.
The main problems with unions today is the piecemeal organization of the AFL-CIO.
People were murdered by capitalist thugs in their attempts to organize. That's a fact. Women and children wee killed in cold blood in places like Ludlow, Colorado by order of John Rockefeller.
To say that unions killed GM is incredibly wrong.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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Gary, there are Federal and State laws that protect the welfare of workers now. And yes, they are derived from the misconduct of employers, but the fat still remains, non-union workers are well protected now.
And employers understand that the better the 'benefits' package they offer, the better the employee that will seek out those jobs.
There is a give-and-take in the non-union world too!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
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Bluering...Your job sounds like it has the same benefits that my union provides...? How come your job hasn't been shipped overseas...?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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How come your job hasn't been shipped overseas...?
The particular product line I work on requires too much hands-on skillz. Attention to details, etc...
2 of our other lines are being done in China. The cheaper stuff.
The systems I work on sell for 200K-500K/system. Kris knows the gear.
EDIT:
Bluering...Your job sounds like it has the same benefits that my union provides...?
So it is possible to get benefits,fair salary, and fair treatment without unions?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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ha ha! hilarious! thats what they all said until some crafty gypo overseas popped their bubble
You have no idea what you're talking about in terms of this line...
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