Norway tragedy...

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Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Nov 16, 2011 - 08:43pm PT

It's always a gud ploy to rant in court if you're looking for a lighter sentence, ikke sant?

S.Leeper

Sport climber

Pflugerville, Texas

Nov 29, 2011 - 06:25pm PT

Looks like he will spend the rest of his life in a sanitarium:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/29/world/europe/norway-terror-suspect/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 08:42pm PT

What else would you expect in a liberal, broken society. This is not justice.

Justice would be life in PRISON, maybe with limited access, or the death penalty.

He's a dangerous mind. It cannot be cured in my opinion.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 29, 2011 - 09:27pm PT

It may make little practical difference. The murderer will either spend the rest of his life, or most of it, in a maximum security prison, or in a maximum security insane asylum.

bluering, you seem threatened by the idea that there are not only societies and countries that make different choices than the US, but that some of their choices may be better. Norway is hardly 'broken', by any rational measure - and the actions of one sociopath, whether or not he's clinically insane, don't prove otherwise. By virtually all measures, Norway is doing very well, often better than the US. And it has for the last 80 years usually had liberal democratic governments. Much of its material wealth relates to the oil and gas developed since the mid 1970s, but not all, and its cultural values and behaviours long predate that. Why does that both you so much?

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Nov 29, 2011 - 09:35pm PT

What else would you expect in a liberal, broken society. This is not justice.

And yet, they have significantly less crime than anywhere in the country you call home. Curious ....don't you think Bluie?

How do you explain that?

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 29, 2011 - 09:50pm PT

The diagnosis is apparently paranoid schizophrenia. The murderer objects.

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/29/breivik-offended-by-insanity-claim/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/11/29/breivik-declared-criminally-insane/

The trial will still proceed in April. The psychiatrists' report (commissioned by the court) goes to a forensic medical commission, and is then presented at the start of the trial, essentially to determine if the accused is fit to stand trial. The courts rarely do other than what such reports recommend.

nature

climber

back in Tuscon Aridzona....

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:05pm PT

related in a way (not directly):

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mariners/2016889346_halman30.html

Huizinga said Jason Halman will be held under psychiatric evaluation two more months and might remain that way rather than face prison time. Huizinga said Jason has been told of his brother's death, but recently asked when he'd be able to visit him.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:15pm PT

The murderer's having been diagnosed as insane does essentially mean that he won't have an opportunity at his trial to spout his beliefs and theories. There'll be a relatively short hearing, and he'll be put away for life. He may eventually have contact with the outside world at whatever institution he's put in, and will no doubt remain an object of macabre fascination, but won't have a bully pulpit for his ranting.

The Norwegian definition of criminally insane, and its application, may differ from that of other countries.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:17pm PT

The problem with leftist-type societies like this is that they discourage their own heritage and faith in favor of diversity, mostly for the sake of apparent political correctness and it makes them feel superior.

This dude, while wrong to take the actions he did, resented that and fought back against what he perceived to be an immigrant degradation of his culture and country.

Be careful before you equate my nationalism to his. He acted wrong and did the exact thing he was fighting against. Pretty illogical. Maybe crazy.

My bottom line is that in their quest to be diverse and multi-cultual, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, and several other Euro countries have allowed immigrants into their countries in large quantities who have no desire to assimilate. In fact, many come to integrate their backwards ideals.

I would agree with those who dislike this. It does happen here too. South of the border types and those who leave Michigan and Minnesota to go back and fight Jihad in Somalia, Pakistan, and elsewhere.

This dude in Norway should be treated the same way as a radical terrorist. He should be put down like a rabid dog, or confined forever with no external contact. You gave up your right to talk to others freely or interact with them.

some recent stories;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8917675/Christian-worker-loses-her-job-after-being-targeted-by-Islamic-extremists.html

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2011/11/brussels-jewish-girl-attacked-by.html

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:34pm PT

The same comfortable vitriol was aimed at the wave of Italian immigrants to the USA as well as Canada. Were the people consumed by hate really identifying with one political stripe or another, or just bigots with a fear of "the other"?

No, it was different. Italians (and other immigrants) had to undergo careful screenings, swear alliegiance to America, and assimilate into our culture. They did so willfullfuly. The sick ones were quaraninied and cured or sent back.

There is where Fatty's clash makes sense. Now, we do not do that. In fact, we have quotas that dictate we have to allow certain quantities from certain countries for the sake of diversity. That is insane!

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:42pm PT

War, easy now- heritage and faith are the only way we can get back to the Middle Ages. We have to hurry, the Rapture is just around the corner.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 10:47pm PT

And Steve, do cohesive VS antagonistic societies necessarily have a leg up on producing idiots ?

Not necessarily, but antagonistic ones I'd guess have a higher tendency to produce 'idiots'. You need to define what you mean by that.

For example, would there be less animosity or 'idiocy' if immigrants assimilated to the country they chose to immigrate to? Or less?

There will always be ethnic tensions among different groups, but sometimes they're not violent in cultures that assimilate well. A common bond is there, as evidenced by the limies, grease-balls, kikes, and chiners coming to the USA.

It just seems like the Islamic immigrants are much more violent and outspoken against the native cultures, much more insistat on pushing their culture on us, instead of accepting our culture.

Of course this is worse in Europe than here.

It is heavy duty stuff for sure. I disagree with him*, but he doesn't strike me as illogical or unreasonable, but rather as 100% committed to his cause, making no excuses, and unrepentant. It is this latter part that makes him such a threat.

This is why Geert Wilders is gaining popularity in Northern Europe. He fights it the right way. Through legislation and intelligence. Not violence.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:05pm PT

lg: In most countries, the first step in a criminal trial (once jurisdiction is established) is to determine whether or not the accused is fit to stand trial. That is, whether or not the person is sane, understands what is happening, and is able to instruct counsel. Certainly in Canada and Norway, I think in the US and most other countries with the rule of law. So the psychologists' report more or less has the effect of denying the murderer a pulpit, but that's not the choice of the government. The judge decides.

You can be reasonably sure that if there's any problem with the diagnosis of insanity, it will be raised.

br: My bottom line is that in their quest to be diverse and multi-cultual, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Holland, and several other Euro countries have allowed immigrants into their countries in large quantities who have no desire to assimilate.

Norway is a much more homogenous society and culture than the USA. A much higher proportion of US residents were born elsewhere than those of Norway. And, partly because the US has 70 times the population of Norway, there are a lot more immigrants in the US who refuse to assimilate, or even reject the values of their adopted home. We have the same problem in Canada, also a land of immigrants. Some Afghans who immgrated to Canada, and then murdered family members in so-called "honour" killings, are currently on trial, and the latest exhibit A for the anti-immigration crowd. All of whose ancestors were immigrants.

There are enclaves of immigrants in Canada and the US (Amish, Mennonite, orthodox Jews...) who've never assimilated. As long as they render unto Caesar, and don't cause problems, so what?

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:08pm PT

Norway is a much more homogenous society and culture than the USA. A much higher proportion of US residents were born elsewhere than those of Norway.

Since when? Historically? I doubt it!

Probably the last 30 years. If that.

As long as they render unto Caesar, and don't cause problems, so what?

Ah! The crux.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:24pm PT

Excitable States: While immigration has increased drastically over the last century, the foreign born share of the population was still higher in 1900 (about 20%) than it is today (about 10%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

(Some, such as bluering, might advocate adding to that number the children of such immigrants, maybe their grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. Some just never assimilate, eh?)

Canuckleheads: The 2006 Census enumerated 6,186,950 individuals who were born outside of Canada. They represented one in five (19.8%) of the total population. This is the highest proportion of foreign-born population in 75 years.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/rt-td/immcit-eng.cfm

Norway: The number of immigrants in Norway is currently approximately 601,000, which corresponds to 12.2 percent of the total population (2011).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway

Of course, a lot of immigration, e.g. from the USA to Canada, or from Sweden to Norway, is hardly noticeable.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:26pm PT

This skinhead Nazi piece of sh#t who shot up a bunch of kids at Summer camp is a complete departure from the incredible diversity we enjoy in being citizens of a country and a planet at the same time.

This is the distinctiontion I was making between his tactics and mine. I feel mostly the same way as this murderer. But I do not pull triggers over the subject. I try to affect change through legislation and political means, not personally, or violently.

Dude was a murderer. I just want a country full of America-loving patriots. Muslim or not.

The man is incorregible. He can never be allowed in public again, or to transfer his hate otherwise.

(Some, such as bluering, might advocate adding to that number the children of such immigrants, maybe their grandchildren and greatgranchildren. Some just never assimilate, eh?)

I think there may be a valid arguement there. You know me well.

I'd attribute it to more radical Imams stiring up sh#t as newer immigrants from war-areas who weren't properly screened. Sh#t-disturbers. We have them here too. Bill Ayers.

mooser

Trad climber

seattle

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:34pm PT

I just want a country full of America-loving patriots. Muslim or not.

Just an honest question: to what end?

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:35pm PT

This guys not an immigrant Blurring.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Nov 29, 2011 - 11:42pm PT

Just an honest question: to what end?

A country that functions again within it's means, with no ethnic hatred. Animosity is o.k., you're never gonna kill that, just less hatred.

Anyone who thinks a bunch of teenagers playing volleyball in the Summer Sun were suitable, despicable target for a politically motivated son of a bitch who had only himself to answer to when looking in the mirror every morning should think harder...

Gotta agree with Jimmy here. There's no excuse. None, for targeting and slaughtering kids intentionally. Illogical and crazy.

Still doesn't mean a bullet wouldn't serve justice. Just one from a firing squad...

Sorry to be so grim. I am tired of sympythy for murderers. And I'm a Jesus-loving man, just seen too much injustice go free.