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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Fritz, I am more blown away from the Chouinard carabiner coming out of a simple eBay auction. The eBay seller states that the items were purchased from a estate sale in California. All of the items are mint condition except for a scuff on the ice axe handle. The main reason I purchased this lot was because of the hammer holster, which turns out to be a Dolt 1958. So in this lot is Chouinard first product sold to the public, and Dolts first product sold to the public.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Marty! Thanks for posting.
Re your mention of: Heres a mystery for Fritz….Spring Workbook 1989 lists a “new Big Offset D” carabiner, Was this carabiner ever marketed? There is no listing of this carabiner in the 1989 or 1990 catalog. Unfortunately the 1989 Spring Workbook does not show a drawing of the new Big Offset D carabiner.
I confess to knowing nothing of the Big Offset D carabiner. I'll ask a friend who was working as a Chouinard/Black Diamond representative at about that time, if he remembers anything. Since it doesn't make it into the first Black Diamond catalog in 1990, I have to assume it didn't happen, however there might well be prototypes & or salesman's samples of it out there. From the description, I'm picturing a slightly larger Quicksilver. 1990 Black Diamond weight on the Quicksilver is 47 grams & the Big Offset D shows in the workbook photo as 49 grams.
Marty: per your thoughts on the anodized Chouinard Quicksilver & Bentgate Quicksilver biners, I agree with your timeline & thoughts. I think Black Diamond sold a fair amount of gear with only Chouinard on it in 1990 & sometime in 1990 started adding the Black Diamond logo stamp to Chouinard.
Per your thought: Fritz can decide if the colored Quicksilver carabiners are to be considered a Chouinard product, or are they to be listed as Black Diamond since they were being produced after Chouinard filed for bankruptcy. The colored Chouinard Quicksilvers were probably in production mid 1989 created for the 1990 season.
Per below photo, I have a Anodized (colored) Quicksilver biner that is marked Chouinard, but not stamped with the Black Diamond logo. In this photo, the top carabiner has the Black Diamond logo stamp right of CHOUINARD.
I also have two anodized Bentgate biners that are not stamped with the Black Diamond stamp. In this photo one with the Black Diamond logo stamp is at top.
My thoughts are if a carabiner is marked both Chouinard & Black Diamond, it still counts as a Chouinard carabiner. The only other ugly question is??? if those stamped with a Black Diamond Logo should be considered a varient of those only marked CHOUINARD?
Since I finally finished collecting each color of the Chouinard Anodized Quicksilver & Bentgate Anodized Quicksilver this year, I hate to think that in order to be a Chouinard carabiner "completest" I would need to collect one in each color with & without Black Diamond logo stamps.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Fritz - this is why collecting can be so much fun! I say you at least go for all of the colors of the Chouinard set. I am sure Chouinard was already creating the colored Quicksilvers and Bentgate Quicksilvers before Black Diamond obtained the business. Plus I think you have a long way to go to complete your overall Chouinard carabiner monopoly. I just sent you Marty's Chouinard carabiner master list. Please edit the list and add what you think is missing then we can share the master list with everybody maybe on your first post on the timeline. Wow Chouinard made a lot of different carabiners!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 15, 2017 - 09:40am PT
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I found some old Chouinard carabiners lately. It loos like a progression from right to left - the right one is marked Alcoa, the centre one is a little flatter than the right one and the left one even flatter.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 11:28am PT
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Marlow? Per these photos of what I suspect the opposite sides of your 3 biners look like?
Is the left-most one marked Chouinard-Salewa & stamped Tested on the gate?
Does the center biner have CHOUINARD on the other side?
And does the rightmost have a faint CHOUINARD on it?
Like these three?
This way, they read easier.
Xcon! Nice catalog scan. That Oval design lasted from its introduction in 1978 to the last Chouinard catalog in 1989, although they kept flattening the alumunum rod a little more. Marty thinks there are 6 different variations of it, but I've only collected five.
Here's the 1978 introduction to the Oval.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 15, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
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Fritz
Yes, the right carabiner has a faint CHOUINARD in small letters, the centre one has CHOUINARD with bigger letters and the left one has CHOUINARD/SALEWA (letters as big as the centre one) on the other side - as seen below
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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Marlow! I appreciate you are a great gear collector. I do not have your variation of the 1971-1974 Chouinard Salewa biner, on the left, in your photos. The ones in my collection & the first page of this thread, are stamped with T for tested, or tested, or tested West Germany.
Your's is the original early model of the 1971-74 Chouinard Salewa biner that was recalled per this June 1972 ad in the Seattle-based climbing magazine Off Belay. (By the way, since it was never tested for strength, it may well be unsafe to fall on.)
Marlow? If you or anyone else reading this would like to sell or trade me one of those, feel free to contact me at raybrooksrep at gmail.com
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 15, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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1971 Chouinard...................nice!
In collecting Chouinard carabiners this is what was created. Chouinard 1958 - 1990.
The display info is still being tweaked a little and just recently the Universe provided Fritz and I with another Chouinard carabiner that is yet shown on this display. Great Holiday surprise....psyched!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 15, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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Fritz - the 1971 Chouinard carabiner you have one that has a "T" stamp in front of the 2200kp. Here are two of the same carabiners shown on ebay but they are stamped "7" and "0." Are you guessing that the "T" stamp stands for the word Tested, where it looks like it may be a random stamp to show that the item was tested. Hmmmm....
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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Marty? Another bolt from the blue for me.
Just when I thought that the chaotic universe of non-catalog Chouinard carabiners had "organized." It devoles back into chaos.
At least, I predicted to you that a Chouinard-Salewa 1971-74 biner would show up, without any marks indicating it had been tested.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dec 16, 2017 - 03:03am PT
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I still have plenty of these as well as ovals that sometimes find their way onto my rack though I've moved most of them now to my river gear.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 16, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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This carabiner looks like it has a "F" stamp before 2200kp.
However, does your "T" stamp carabiner also have "Tested on the gate? The carabiners that are marked "O" "7" and "F" have the word "TESTED" on the gate also.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2017 - 11:25am PT
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Marty: Sorry for a slow reply. That Chouinard-Salewa biner of mine that has a F on it, came from a freind of mine in 1973, Bruce Franks. And of course that F was from his stamp.
However! I must report still another Chouinard carabiner varient.
Per the above photo, they are only stamped on one side, but the side varies.
They match up as being a transitional biner from the 1974-77 Chouinard D marked 4000 LBS & the 1977 transitional D's that are marked 2100KG, but never show up in a Chouinard catalog.
I've sent a spare to Marty at the Karabine Museum, but we both think these are prototypes.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 24, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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Fritz - Many thanks! This carabiner is wonderful! For now I am listing the mystery Chouinard carabiner as "Chouinard Prototype, made sometime 1974-1976. Its shape and gate matches the 1977 Chouinard carabiner, but the mystery carabiner is stamped with only the Chouinard diamond symbol, and other carabiner side is blank.
Very nice item to receive on Christmas Eve!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
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Marty! It's great to swap biners with you. Merry Christmas!
Keying on the nose-height, I date the prototype Chouinard biner, I sent you, firmly to 1977, when Chouinard was re-working his carabiner line.
Per this photo, with the 4000 lb. 1974-77 Chouinard D at the bottom, the never-seen in a catalog 2100 KG D, that looks identical to the 4000 lb. D just above it, & a prototype, similar to the one I sent you, in the middle: they all have higher noses than the two biners above them, but the nose on the prototype looks different from the two bottom carabiners.
Click on the photo to enlarge it.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
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The ad says Chouinard carabiners 1957 - 1985
lower on the ad it shows and lists a 1958 Alcoa.
This is the confusion of Chouinard's first carabiner. Should it be historically listed as 1957 or 1958? All of the items that Chouinard created were listed under the date the item was first introduced to the public. For some reason the Alcoa carabiner on the Chouinard "firsts list" is listed under when it was first being developed. Throughout the Chouinard catalogs the Chouinard wordage history states 1958 being the historic date. But there are many cases where the 1957 date keeps popping up.
What is also interesting about the ad is that the New Standard carabiner shown is listed as 1985, but the New Standard carabiner shown in the 1985 catalog looks different. The carabiner shown in the ad is pictured in the 1986 Chouinard catalog. I believe this ad was put out in late 1985 introducing the new carabiner for the 1986 season. So once again is this now a 1985 carabiner or to be listed as 1986? Technically I can say late 1985, but then every product Chouinard created would also be listed as late the year previous that the catalog showed the new products. Darn history!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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On the display board the 1978 Oval shown is actually the 1987 Oval. I can fix that! Anyways here is some more ways to identify the difference between the two Ovals. 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures the Oval having flat gate ends and I notice that the Chouinard stamp on the carabiner body is upside-down. Actually it is the only carabiner Chouinard produced with the stamp upside-down. Not sure if they were randomly stamping the Oval, but the photo shows that the carabiner existed.
The 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures a Oval but the hinge end of the gate is covered up. All of the other carabiner models shown in the 1987 catalog have bullet gate ends so I assume the Oval also has bullet ends. The 1987 Chouinard catalog also shows the mfg stamp is right side up.
Anybody have a 1978 Chouinard Oval they want to donate to the display? (flat gate ends), Fritz may be looking for one also!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2019 - 08:51am PT
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Since this thread has been so wonderful, with participation from many, I have kept a copy of it as a word.doc & I also have most of the photos as jpegs. I will be glad to share with any legit historian or website that wants to repost the thread.
Ray Brooks aka Fritz
My FB page is here. RAY BROOKS IDAHO STORIES & MISADVENTURES
https://www.facebook.com/groups/425056734950713/
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Chouinard only produced one colored carabiner and it was the 1983 Marinabiner. All of the other carabiners that say “Chouinard” on them and are colored are from Black Diamond 1990.
Let us know!