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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 17, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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If you CATCH an animal CURRENTLY attacking a domestic animal on private property you may shoot to kill, but if you miss, and it runs, you aren't supposed to kill it.
This is false, at least in Montana.
Read some of these reports for examples:
http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/management/wolf/wolfWeekly2010.html
quick example
On 10/15, WS killed a wolf near Hall (near Drummond), as previously authorized by FWP after WS
confirmed a cow was killed on private land during an investigation on 10/11. Efforts to remove the
remaining wolves are ongoing.
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John_Box
Ice climber
Bellingham
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Nov 17, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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OK, I normally don't get involved in these, but one question and an opinion, solely looking at one aspect of this. If wolves are such a threat to elk population, how have the populations coexisted, and both survived up to this point? It seems to me that crashing elk populations may be due to a return to previous population levels before the elimination of wolves across the west.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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These new animals also outweigh our native species by a bunch.
This is also false...you have wrote 150 pounds on here a couple times...not the case.
Actual wolf weights often skimpier than hunters estimate
Adult females averaged 86 pounds, according to Idaho Department of Fish and Game officials, who also included the weights of wolves struck by vehicles in the survey. For adult males, 101 pounds was the average.
Stats from the 2009 Montana Wolf hunt:
General age classification:
· 22 juveniles; 31% of total harvest
· 22 yearlings; 31% of total harvest
· 27 adults; 38% of total harvest
· 1 unknown
Weights:
· Juveniles weighed 62 pounds on average. Yearlings weighed about 80 pounds. Adults weighed
97 pounds. One wolf weighed 117 pounds.
Sex of harvest:
· A total of 41 males and 31 females were harvested.
from:
http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=41454
EDIT: you then respond: Edit: The WILDLIFE SERVICE (WS) is allowed to pursue and kill problem animals. Ranchers and other civilians are NOT. False again...read the reports. I actually know ranchers who have been authorized...
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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I like how you keep redefining your response...you can't just admit you were misinformed? Not the same thing, you were wrong and spouting off...
Animals killed on roads by cars do not a random statistically valid sample make of perhaps healthier animals in the brush.
I posted two sources. One from Idaho(which include the roadkills) and one from the 2009 Montana Wolf hunt, a sample size of ~72
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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As of Dec. 31, 2009, FWP documented at least 524 wolves in 101 verified packs
from:
http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=42353
That would be ~5.18 wolves per pack on average.
The photo of the pack above is either an anomaly or photoshop, and if that pack truly is that size, I have no doubt it is being reduced by FWP.
What the source of the photo?
EDIT: as for the other photo, I too got it in an email...it said 127 lbs in the email...but I yet to find anything other than that email as a source...you'd think The Idaho FWP would have it mentioned somewhere, as the weight would be a record according to them.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Give it up, Tom...That one ain't worth your time or effort.
We that know the truth will abide. Eff the rest.
It's not like there's a lotta wolves on the Boise Bench anyway. Misinformation meister will just spew you down.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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FOAD. What's your problem, Dickhead?
Please die now. you're wasting valuable oxygen.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
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I think 100 lbs(on average) vs 150 pounds is a bit more than 18%...
The 127 pounder is UNCONFIRMED, and even if proven to be true, it would still be an ANOMALY...
EDIT: judging by your post below you don't understand the difference between AVERAGE and RECORD
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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I have seen that picture of the lady holding the wolf floating around the web for a while. I don't think it is either real or proportional. I've seen a lot of wolves, both in Montana and Alaska, and they aren't that big.
The thing wolves do have is big feet and super long legs. So they can run down anything on Earth in the snow.
If you are going to post things, make sure the facts are straight. Even if they don't go in your direction of argument.
I have posted my opinions previously. I love wolves more than any other animal, and I have been in wolf turf a hell of a lot (Brooks Range).
But people won't tolerate them.
My solution? Cut down every damn fence. Reintroduce buffalo and all that, and all will be good. Or kill everything that eats what we eat, plant one species of crop, and just have zoos.
Go back to being hunter gatherers. The world has gone downhill ever since we started farming.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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You folks crack me up sometime. So out of touch with reality, only believing what you are told, and so on and so forth.
I frequent the ground this happened on. It would be stupid(not risky, or scary, but stupid) to go there unarmed, We have meat eaters out here. To assume that these relocated wolves won't attack a man is just ignorant. To think these two were doing anything wrong or out of the ordinary for here is just as ignorant.
I gather my meat for the year by hunting, alone, in these same woods. It is a way of life I have always enjoyed. The people who talk about it and write about it, and tout they are athorities on the subject, well they aren't out there. I never see them, meet them, or even know anyone who has. The truth is we have a serious wolf problem here, and it has devastated many things, hunting just being a small part of it. A lot of us are waiting for the first human fatality to occur here, yes it really happens, and it isn't really to far off. Then you may get a semi impartial view into what it is really like here. That will sell some newspapers, and you won't need to wait too long either.
Any doubters, I will personally pick you up at the airport, and take you to any of a hundred venues, and introduce you to reality, Montana wolf style. Just pay the gas, and we can scare us for up to four days at a stretch.
Cosmic, you have always made me laugh, being a little out there and all, but you have no idea how far out there you are on this topic.
Burly Bob
edited to add, the cosmic comment was for his posts on the first three or so pages, there was no way I could read all 400 posts before comment on the silliness I was reading begged to be answered.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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What I don't understand about these (frequent) wolf threads is what I am supposed to do about it. Got a wolf problem? Write your congressman or shoot them or whatever.
In evil Cali the (federally protected) shark population is on the increase and there was a recent fatality. Amount of complaining about sharks I've heard? None. When there is a problem with mountain lions the local authorities often shoot them.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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it would be funnier if the wolf was holdin the woman in said picture, all arms a danglin' and such...the wolf with a big grin on its face...thank GUD the soccer mom's are all protected an such!!1111
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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Base 104-
Buffalo roaming brings to mind a very romantic, La La land fantasy...I've lived with the damned things roaming my neighborhood; I've even had one bed down blocking my driveway. Unless they are certified Brucellosis Free, no state is ever going to let them run wild again.
American agriculture is unparallaled in it's ability to feed huge numbers of people--all at reasonable costs, too. All these misty-eyed fantasies are ill-advised; ask the average housewife if she'd like $6.00/pound hamburger to feed a family of 4 or 5. Not! That would be the net result of, once again, "having the buffalo roam."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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I agree with you Brokendown Climber but I also wish we had a different reality which included a lot more wildlife and a fraction of the 300 plus million homo sapiens we are "blessed" with.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Base 104, your stories are touching. Misleading, but touching. You may have a false sense of no fear from a wolf, and we need people like you,
to make up the statics.
This isn't even close to a Yellowstone problem. You are the sort of people I am refering to. First, act like you know, and spread the ignorance to others. It almost worked for Tredwell, well not really.
If you think you can defend yourself with a stick, please take me up on my offer to take you out for some fun and frolic in these tame mountains we have. This I gotta see, heck, I'll even provide the stick.
It isn't an inconvenience problem, or less game to hunt. That is just the hype of the media and internet. This issue is way bigger than you could ever believe, not like a mountain lion eats a hiker or two.
They are listed as endangered, a tactic to sue to control all the land by the green thinking crowd. It's been this way for many years. It would be like you trying to clean up your seedier neighborhoods and eliminate gang shootings by shooting them yourselves. It won't pass the legal muster, nor would society approve, right or wrong. Don't claim to know something, and report it as fact, as some of us are saddled to some very big problems from just such behavior.
Burly Bob
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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I actually had fewer problems with the buffalo than I did with the A-hole that owned them and didn't feed them in wintertime.
The big bull buffalo blocking my driveway was named "Damian," by the way. The owner later on got pissed at him and simply shot him, which I thought was a travesty. The S.O.B. had a herd of 47 animals and was too effing lazy to take care of them, or even put up the hay on his own property so they could be fed properly in wintertime. Eventually he lost the ranch and was evicted--by none other than his OWN MOTHER! Justice was truly served there!
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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AC, it is a regular occurance to see, and need to defend yourself from wolves, if you frequent the same places I do, in the amount I do. I also see cats, and griz, but those only need a few precations to prevent a bad situation.
There are a lot of folks who are still claiming we Montanans are just a bunch of money sucking leaches on the system, teat I believe was the term, yet not one of the so called wolf fans wants to take me up on a free trip into the most wonderful place in the lower 48. I don't understand?????
Rox, if you could tone down about 99.5% you might be more effective. AC, you are nearly as bad. Please, come visit Jan, edejom, or me, and see for yourself. It doesn't strike you funny that people living with the problem, are trying to enlighten others on the issue, from others not faced with anything even remotely like the problem being discussed. Just a bunch of internet research and mudslinging?
I seriously would love to take a legislator or one of you, or any sort, green pro wolf advocate, for a walk in the wild. I would be nice, hospitable, and work my butt off to show them what it is they think they know. I'm pretty sure I can sway many attitudes with this method. You know, put ignorance to rest. I am sure it will never come to be, as people like to bitch and whine, but really don't vest themselves in an issue. We on the other hand, are not only vested, but it is thrust upon us.
Don't kid yourselves into thinking the Montana Fish and Game folks know any more than the normal misinformation either. I rarely see them in the field either.
Burly Bob
Afterthought add- Don't kid yourselve into thinking that many, many, many wolves are illegally killed and not discussed. And the problem is still getting worse. Hmmmm.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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Base104, I did not call you a Tredwell. I didn't even mean to connect you personally to the thought, just the general nay sayers. I was mearly pointing out the line of thinking I am seeing from some here is parallel. Sheesh, I am not even trying to comment on you personally beyond your seemingly casual attitude of the wolf.
DO NOT TAKE ME PERSONALLY< PLEASE.
Burly Bob
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 18, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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