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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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Dr.Sprock: i just tied a clove to a biner, and it almost untied itself.
Operator error. Cinch your f*#king knots down. The knot will certainly be cinched after the first guy raps on it. The sky is not falling.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 01:54am PT
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PTPP..
hahahaha!
Yes, I agree with you, lurking here. Although, the conversation is muddied by (interesting) discussions of other (rapping 2 line) systems, and it is hard to tell them apart. Although, somebody had a point about rapping the skinny line and pulling the lead line in case the rope got stuck.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 18, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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ok, although i had to kind of fudge this to illustrate a point, the point is, that without a locker, this Could happen.
probably a thousand to one, but with a locker your odds go way up.
figure 8 is tied a bit loose due to cold hands, it wraps around the anchor and opens the gate.
now the biner slams into the anchor as you hope and pray that the steel ring does not break the allow biner.
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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Pete: I prefer using an alpine butterfly to the clove hitch Russ shows, but either will work - with a locker. [Would you trust your life to a single non-locking crab? I sure as hell wouldn't]
As to the Alpine Butterfly.... if you are using the loop portion for the biner and then clipping that biner into the single rap line, that will not keep the knot from going through a rap ring. Sure you are alive, which is nice, but the rope is stuck at the anchor.
I just tied one with my lead line (9.2) and it honked right through a standard rap ring with minimal force. It is essential that the knot and biner are ONE up against the rap ring. That is why the clove is perfect for the job.
Edit for Sprock: that example above is not what I am suggesting or talking about. The figure 8 knot and any hoops you can make it jump through are apples to oranges. Look at my pics, set your test up exactly like my pics and then show me the possible failure modes.
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 18, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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I consider Clint's last statement to be worth considering...
"The blocking knot/locking biner setup does not work well for plain slings, as the knot could pass through the slings. You would then be held by the locking biner, but you might not be able to pull the knot back through the slings. A (properly sized) ring/quicklink is required for the "pull cord" system."
If I'm using a "pull cord" system of some type its almost certainly going to be in an alpine setting. 3/4ths of the way up the Diamond and lightning storm is hitting. I want down fast. If you run the rap rope merely through webbing, (then tie a loop and clip back to rap rope with locking biner) there is still the risk of the knot jumping the webbing. With the biner you are not going to die while rapping, but if you can't pull the line you may-well die of exposure. Having to prussic back up a stuck rap line in the rain and lightning would in itself be a dangerous outcome. Having some spare rings I think would greatly reduce the risk of a stuck rope. But, having said that, the alum rings don't weigh much.
Personally, I generally prefer a lead rope and light rap line, over double ropes, because you only have to handle one rope while belaying, and you can use the rap line for pulling up the pack if need be. But then each climb is a little different, and differing systems might be optimal. That's why we all own a trunk full of various ropes, right?
I will also add, that out of this whole thread, I did learn one good trick; the clove hitch on a biner. I like that (of course with biner clipped back through rap line). I hadn't thought of it before.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 18, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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For any truly alpine situation, many use either double ropes, or a lead rope with a second rope that's thick enough to plausibly be used for leading if necessary.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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Heartbraking account japhy, I'm sorry for your loss. I shudder to think what your hands and heart feel like right now. You have, I imagine, learned true suffering.
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 02:15am PT
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Rockermike: I will also add, that out of this whole thread, I did learn one good trick; the clove hitch on a biner. I like that (of course with biner clipped back through rap line). I hadn't thought of it before.
Why do you like the biner clipped? How does it make you any safer?
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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> This system has NOTHING to do with washers
The washer is simply a way to enlarge the effective outer diameter of the knot, so that it will not pass through the ring. I would use a clove hitch on a biner instead, or tie a larger knot, so I wouldn't have to carry a washer for that single purpose.
If I was rappelling all the way down the Nose from the top, and I knew rings were in place, I might take a (2" outer diameter) washer. It does have the advantage of preventing any part of a knot from going through the ring, and it can't be "untied".
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 18, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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here is a clove hitch after a few shakes,
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:25am PT
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The clove hitch is secure. You are weighting it. No shakes possible, unless you get onto a ledge, unweight and try very hard.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 18, 2010 - 02:30am PT
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Fish
So PTPP won't proclaim me a dead wanker. ha
but I am going to go with a locker and a ring.
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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Sprock has provided a picture of an un-cinched clove hitch.... wow that does look sketchy. So if you don't cinch it up real tight, shake it around a bunch, and then hop on a rappel with the clove all loose and on the gate, you are saying that is dangerous? Go figure. Use your bean man. There is judgement involved with these various processes and that pic is just showing a sloppy ass knot, not a possible failure mode in practice. Set it up on a rap ring as I've previously shown, load it, and then show me how it will fail.
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:34am PT
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I can imagine a biner going through some sort of non-standard "rap ring" (e.g. like another biner).
Think of it as idiot-proofing - if one always clips the biner to the rope, then one never has to notice that one HAS to clip the biner to the rope because of some weird rap setup.
But I'm imaginative and an idiot...
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Reticulous
Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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Hey all,
I definately want to offer my prayers. We all make mistakes, and every so often they cost us everything.
On another note, I have not done a lot of big wall climbing that requires full rope rapps. The ones I have done have been done without incident and without even much worry, because I am under the impression that what I use is basically bombproof.
I run my lead through the rings and tie off a butterfly with a locking biner back to the front side. I then use a second full rope and tie off on the pull side with a double fisherman. I rapp on both using the big side of a fig. 8 and always prussic around both in my hand as a backup.
I am mainly wondering if this is a good way to go? It seems to me to be an improvement of the Petzl design, but would value all GOOD opinions. I haven't died yet, and don't really want to any time soon!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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Cleo,
Yes, sometimes there are "fixed" nonlocking biners at a rap anchor. (More likely at a sport anchor, about 30m off the ground, so you could rap with a single line). But there are fixed nonlocking biners atop p1 of Serenity Crack. You could then supply your own quicklink.
Reticulous,
Your system is the same as Petzl. Disadvantage is that the butterfly could possibly go into/through the rings, which hangs up the rappel. You don't die, but you have to jug up and rig something better. But you probably use a 10.x diameter lead line on a wall, and that is unlikely to get very far into the rings.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 18, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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so here is the correct setup, illustrating Pete's point that you can tie a frickin bow tie in your drag line, it don't matter, as long as you have the main enchillada all squared away.
that top biner would actually be a rap ring, doh!
ok then.
point me to el cap.
I' Want To Die!
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
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May 18, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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Reticulus: I run my lead through the rings and tie off a butterfly with a locking biner back to the front side. I then use a second full rope and tie off on the pull side with a double fisherman. I rapp on both using the big side of a fig. 8 and always prussic around both in my hand as a backup.
I am mainly wondering if this is a good way to go? It seems to me to be an improvement of the Petzl design, but would value all GOOD opinions. I haven't died yet, and don't really want to any time soon!
If you are rapping on both cords, why bother with the butterfly and biner clip jazz? Seems like more of a clusterf*#k up at the anchor than just the standard 2 strand rap.
DrSprock: snap out of it or you *are* going to die. That is not the right way. Your enchilada is not squared away. Are we even on the same page here or are you just running your own program?
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
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Reticulous
Sport climber
Sacramento, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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Well the way I see it, I have never been scared to rappel this way, and quite honestly never even thought of dumbing it down. Would you suggest just the double fisherman and pull?
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