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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Nothing like a "discussion" (is that the word) about firearms to bring out the worst in everybody.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Word, D.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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If gun regulation lowers the amount of weapons that honest citizens have, that is a good thing, even if it doesn't effect criminals, and handguns should be banned outright.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:48pm PT
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There will be plenty of folks that'll tell you to STICK your ban.
Good luck with that.
#357, number counter people.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Regarding the constitution, and why the courts tend to read it in favor of the right to bear arms...
Constitutional scholars recognise that the preamble bears less weight than the direct statement which follows.
"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
In the case of this sentence the preamble explains the need, the body or statement expresses the intent.
"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
edit: Bummer, I missed post # .357 by one...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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Franky and the handwringers, (is that a band name?)
don't want reality to interfere with their fantasy
Just use Florida for an example. Since they became a "right to carry/shall issue " state in 1987 they've issued 1.5 million CCW permits and only had to revoke 166.
Their murder rate dropped by 26 percent while the nationwide rate rose 9 percent from 87 to 92. Since 92 there's also been a declining national rate.
The present trend is when a state establishes "Must issue" rules for CCWPs murder rates immediately fall by 8.5% and other violent crimes by 5-7%
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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dktem writes:
"So if someone nukes a city, we can remedy that by throwing the perpetrator in jail."
All you have to do is ride your Unicorn over to the other side of Fantasyland, you should be fine there.
But seriously, a nuke blast is an act of war. Nuclear arms aren't just way out of reach for civilians, all but the richest Nations can't develop and maintain them.
Any individual setting off a nuke is obviously acting on behalf of a hostile Nation.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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Cause and effect, hard to determine but often used (many times incorrectly) to further one's point.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
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Iran "has" nukes now.
Not the wealthiest.... but the most motivated. lol?
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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I hate to say "I told you so," but do you now see where I'm coming from in describing the frustrations of dealing with (many, not all) liberals? This guy could have read the thread and educated himself, but instead he chooses to weigh in on a subject he knows less than nothing about.
Just can't stop calling everyone who disagrees a "liberal."
I gotta give up on ya dude. Rush owns your brain now.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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But seriously, a nuke blast is an act of war. Nuclear arms aren't just way out of reach for civilians, all but the richest Nations can't develop and maintain them.
Any individual setting off a nuke is obviously acting on behalf of a hostile Nation.
Sorry, but you are avoiding the issue again.
If you want credibility, you gotta answer the question that was posed:
Can the government infringe on someone's RIGHT to own a nuclear bomb, which is, in fact, an "arm?"
("Arm" is the word used by the Constitution)
It's a "yes or no" question. Of course I welcome any justification for your answer.
(Just because you think that someone can't build one has nothing to do with the answer. Very few gun owners could build their own gun either. Why can't I buy a nuke?)
And since when is gun not a weapon of war? When I was in the army, we sure did learn a lot about rifles...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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There is a difference militia-wise between individual arms and crew-served weapons.
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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TGT, read the scholarly response to the statistics you are citing, and you will see that they have been invalidated. Concealed carry usually does nothing to the crime rate, and in some cases increases it slightly (but usually not statistically significantly).
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ThomasR
Sport climber
France
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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I very seldom come in here, but I just got the link for this hot topic in my mail box.
I didn't read the first 386 posts... but I have a question. Back in 1994 or so, I went hiking in Yellowstone. And I think that guns were then allowed for multidays hikes, in case you woudl encounter some agressive bears...
Is that correct? is my memory failing? Was it an exception to the main rule?
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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eh, criminals like to steal guns. why make yourself a target?
having a gun doesn't swing the situation in your favor, I don't know how many times I have to say this. having a gun is more likely to turn a nonviolent situation violent than it is to diffuse a violent situation in your favor. criminal has a gun, you are better off just doing what he says than not, ask the insurance companies, they are the ones who have the real statistics.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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That makes absolutely no sense, Franky.
Every law enforcement agency in the country recomends carrying a holstered handgun for personal protection.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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franky--it's the wimpy attitude that you espouse that was to a large extent responsible for success of the 9/11 attacks. Standard operating procedure was "just do what the hijackers say, they'll probably just make you fly to Cuba (or wherever) and no one gets hurt." The terrorists exploited this weakness to devastating effect.
What may be successful tactic on an individual basis may not be good longterm strategy. Consider giving in to kidnappers. If it's your kid, you probably would want to just pay the criminals and (you hope) get your kid back. But that's just going to lead to more kidnapping in the future.
Your "just do what the criminals say" attitude may well be a good tactic for you (and any other individual), but it will encourage more crime in the long run. To put it into economic terms, you are "free riding" by enjoying the benefits provided by the lawful gun owning population without incurring the costs. That's one reason why COMPULSORY gun ownership may be a good idea.
Edit--I posted the above before I read LEB's reference to 9/11. Good to see I'm not the only person thinking here!
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franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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Eh, you guys keep saying the same sh#t over and over. I never disputed that guns can help in a situation, you've gone ahead and mentioned a few. The problem is, the situations where they hurt are much more common.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 24, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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I hear the mighty roar of chicken hawks. Most , not all, ST gun owners would sh#t their pants in a real confrontation.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 24, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Franky writes:
"Eh, you guys keep saying the same sh#t over and over....situations where they hurt are much more common"
There's a reason you hear the same thing repeated when you advance the same arguement over and over yourself.
It's wrong, Franky. How many ways do need to have this illustrated to you?
When a university study conflicts with facts on the ground, it's the study that's wrong.
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