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jstan
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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"everyone 'evolved' from a common ancestor"
While it is possible everything evolved from a single individual at some point, when you consider what must have been happening, it is not probable. Apparently sometime less than a half billion years after the earth had cooled down, under almost any imaginable scenario there would have been huge numbers of neo-life-forms all competing and changing together. We may get some sort of psychological benefit out of thinking there was "one" successful competitor. As we still, even today, get some pay off from thinking there is someone who is the "best in the world". The concept of "best" is imaginary. Best according to what criteria?
One of the most important tasks each of us has is to avoid letting our own psychological needs and makeup limit us.
Werner:
Here we are down to words, again. I used the word "individual". Why? Because it is not clear there were specie at the beginning. And because a lot of people read "common ancestor" and think individual.
I for one do not know the precision with which Darwin used the word nor do I know to which portion of the evolutionary drama he was referring. And I do not automatically assume Darwin was perfectly right in everything he thought or said. With the politics of the day I surely do not expect he said everything that he thought.
Edit:
My hypothesis about the importance of hidden psychological needs has just been supported by the appearance of a thread here about the competition to have "the tallest building in the world."
I think we need look no further to understand a few of the weird aspects of human behavior
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Well didn't Darwin also say we came from a common ancestor.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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DR.F.- "All this is in your minds".
That is a rationalization, which is what I would expect from most people. And yes it did take place in my mind/thought processes. But I in no way before, during, or after think that I was guilty. And in fact thought that God had somehow accused me of something I was not guilty of or should not be in the wrong for feeling. And much like Bronwyn was sharing with you, God did indeed see ahead, and alerted me to the danger of such thinking. It took many years, but I never forgot His intervention, and I eventually came to agree that although I did not have to like the man, I had to forgive him.
So my question to weschrist was, where does guilt/empathy etc. come from? Is it is no more than a highly adaptive response to external stimuli? I believe it was given to us by a Creator who designed us to have some of the same characteristic's that He has, feelings if you will. "Created man in His image...". And given a choice to obey or not.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Bronwyn's argument about consciousness is wrong on many levels. Certainly consciousness is the subject of scientific investigation. The explanation is obvious, it is an evolved adaptation. What we think we know about consciousness is very different from the reality of consciousness, this is quite well documented in the scientific literature, and in popular books on the subject, you can read Daniel Dennetn's Consciousness Explained as an example, though judging this crowd it won't get very good reviews.
Secondly, arguing that we don't have a scientific explanation for consciousness doesn't meant that we won't, or that we can't have one. The implicit assumption in that post is that because we don't have an explanation, we can't explain it, and therefore it exists because of "God." Stated that way the argument is ridiculous.
Going beyond that is yet another statement regarding "science is the basis for the manifestation of what is often termed the 'supernatural'." Which I don't understand at all.
Main Entry: suˇperˇnatˇuˇral
Pronunciation: \ˌsü-pər-ˈna-chə-rəl, -ˈnach-rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- + natura nature
Date: 15th century
1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
As science is a study wholly related to the visible observable universe, there would seem to be no overlap between the two. The point is, if what you take to be "supernatural" actually affects the "natural" then it is a part of the "visible observable universe" and can be observed, measured, quantified, detected.
There is no such thing.
This is an assertion that will be objectionable to many of you, but it is an assertion that I make confident that you cannot refute it.
Further, as we have reminded everyone here time and again, science is not about proving something is correct but about showing that something is not correct. Thus evolution is consistent with the observations related to biological systems. It is an explanation which is not disproved by what we know.
We can also say that the creationist explanation is consistent with the observations, however, it is consistent by construction. It is an explanation that says, essentially, that God made it so, whatever it is. The obvious limitations to such an explanation is that it doesn't help us understand any more about biology, it reduces it to simply cataloging what is without understanding if there are deeper, biological connections. The creationist explanation is sterile, it cannot produce more, or new knowledge.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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science is not about proving something is correct but about showing that something is not correct
This is part of what makes math so attractive.
Though proof by contradiction is often useful.
Is math part of the material world?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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Thanks for sharing the story 777
That's real insight regarding hate.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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Yes, we all came from a common ancestor
So you agreed
Darwin agreed
That God is the common ancestor.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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weschrit!
The vast majority of human beings have the response known as guilt when they do something that should elicit that response? People born with a defect and never mature past a child like state are not held accountable for there actions. Some injury or disability obviously not a curse or test. It sounds as though you were brought by or closely acquainted with some one who had little knowledge of the word of God.
My first question had to do with guilt. Were does it come from? I added empathy being the ability to share another's emotions or feelings. Guilt being that one comes to the realization that one has violated a moral standard. Has done something wrong. As I shared above I had done nothing wrong as far as I was concerned.
You can deaden parts of the mind until you come up with a comatose person.
Guilt? Your dog evidently shows no guilt in regards to what he left on the door!!! Where does our guilt originate from?? Just a response to........???
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 20, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Weaschrist- "You obviously don't know Willey".
I just came up with a hypothetical question. It could have been in regards to anything that could illicit guilt. Such as getting angry and hitting someone for instance.
I am sure Willey' is a good boy.
BTW I love dogs.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Karl Baba- "Thanks for sharing...that's real insight regarding hate".
Forgiveness is a big part of Christs message. That we should love and forgive our enemies as well as those we consider friends or loved ones. He was thinking of our own well-being as much as our enemies. In that bitterness and hate will not only destroy others, but ourselves and our relationships as well. Sometimes it takes just that, some time before we can forgive.
I have had some very good Christian friends that bitterly hate their fathers. And it became apparent that they were having trouble relating to their Heavenly Father.
Thanks, Trip~
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jstan
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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"where does guilt/empathy etc. come from? Is it is no more than a highly adaptive response to external stimuli? I believe it was given to us by a Creator who designed us to have some of the same characteristic's that He has, feelings if you will. "
I very sincerely hope that a god, if such exists, is NOT like us. Look around us and tell me you want a god who does this.
The text above posits the possibility guilt is an evolved adaptation and then immediately diverts the discussion to accept an alternative explanation that has no evidence at all to support it. The result is an illogical discussion.
I would now attempt to examine evidence we see each day in our lives suggesting how the evolutionary adaptation not only worked in the past but how it is working today for each of us.
Suppose you are say, a carpenter, and you have been assigned a job for which your experience is less than you would like. This is not an unusual circumstance and it can be extrapolated to any activity involving the cooperation of two or more individuals. But to be specific, let's say you are forming up for a concrete pour with very esthetic curves and the job will be very closely examined before it will be bought off. You have a pair of just born twins at home and no other jobs offered. Not so unusual, eh?
As soon as you reach the job site do you disparage your coworker to his face? Ridicule him? I would suggest not. It is more likely you would be very anxious to support him in successful completion of the job and even more interested in learning from him the things you need to know. Suppose he does, for some reason, accept you and attempt to assist you. He has befriended you. He did not have to accept you. He could have gone to the super and said, "Get rid of this idiot!"
Now suppose you, not surprisingly, did not do as good a job on one part as your practiced coworker. He sees the result and smilingly says, "Not a problem. We can fix that up in a jiffy. Here's how.
How will you feel? Guilty? Guilty because you have not been able to support a friend as you would have liked? Someone whose friendship you desperately need.
Now 777 if you had told me there was a very courageous fellow in Jerusalem 2000 years ago who had tried to convince everyone to support others as the coworker in this story had done I would say, "I believe it! I see wonderful people every day. They are everywhere.
You leave me when all powerful gods who seem to do nothing are brought into a discussion when a very reasonable answer is right there in front of us.
People who try to do good things for others are all around us.
Them I'll believe in.
Edit:
Gobee is clearly interested in proselytizing only among the young.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:00am PT
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weschrist- "I found myself slamming your God that would create creatures in His image with such a terrible trait when the alternitive would have been so much better".
He created us with free will, choice! the only alternative is robots or puppets. Do not blame Him for our choices. What alternitive weschrist, would be so much better?
I took years of anatomy, physiology, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psych. and abnormal psych., human development etc. and have worked in both locked wards and outpatient facility's. Studied post graduate studies in clinical psychology('95). And through my work have read many articles/thesis and research that have both supported the "idea"(they are just that "ideas" to quote your source)and have come up with alternative findings. By the way, I have done much research into the disorder classified as Sociopaths or Psychopaths who seem to lack or have repressed empathy and guilt. My graduate thesis was in abnormal psychology, specifically the behavior of sociopath's iin this specific regard. I am an licensed Occupational Therapist, an OTR/L.
Your dogs are conditioned to respond to acts that will either please or discourage you. Did you run up and give them a hug after they destroyed your belongings? No? It was a reaction the same as if you had rewarded them for fetching a bone. Your dogs did not feel grief or sorrow for what they did while they waited in the dog house for your mood to change. They could see nothing wrong with their actions, only your reaction and subsequent response. I have owned three dogs, and hope to get one more.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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"Gobee goes for the younins... easy targets...
I pity the fool who clings to his poverty, the poorest person, is the one without God!
It takes a broken wise soul to know that he can't earn his way to heaven.
Thanks to Jesus, God made a way, it is finished, rejoice!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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jstan- "I very sincerely hope that a god, if he exists is not like us...".
And that is exactly what God is trying to relate to us. I am Holy, for you should be holy.
You are missing the whole point about in His image. We have a soul(our personality/individuality/integrity, who we are.) He gave us a spirit to relate to Him. He gave us the knowledge of good. Something dogs or other beast do not have. We received evil, the knowledge of it during the fall of man in Eden. He gives us the choice now, what do you choose. He gave us a conscience to recognise good and evil.
Some individuals harden their heart to the point where the prodding of God through their conscience is null and void. It is your choice.
It sounds like you hate the concept of God because of the actions of man.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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I don't have a copy of The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals so I don't know at the moment what Darwin may have had to say about guilt. I do have How the Mind Works and when you have a book you should use it, so I looked up what Steven Pinker had to say about guilt. The word 'guilt' does appear in the index but the word 'forgiveness' does not, so we do not get a complete picture.
Steven Pinker says, "It would be unwise to pave Yosemite", so beware that he tries to entertain as well as enlighten the reader.
So we look for religion in the index and find that H.L. Mencken wrote, "The most common of all follies is to believe in the palpably not true."
Steven Pinker himself:
"We can well imagine creatures with fewer cognitive faculties than we have:[examples including dogs]. So why should there not be creatures with more cognitive faculties than we have, or with different ones? They might readily grasp how free will and consciousness emerge from a brain and how meaning and morality fit into the universe."
"In mathematics, one says that the integers are closed under addition: adding two integers produces another integer; it can never produce a fraction. But that does not mean that the set of integers is finite. Humanly thinkable thoughts are closed under the workings of our cognitive faculties [kind of a leap, there] and may never embrace the solutions to the mysteries of philosophy. But the set of thinkable thoughts may be infinite nonetheless."
[a little math envy in the above]
"If these conjectures are correct, our psyche would present us with the ultimate tease. The most undeniable thing there is, our own awareness, would be forever beyond our conceptual grasp."
And I like it that Steven Pinker, who is foremost an expert on language, uses the words of G.K. Chesterton to illustrate a point about the limitations of language. Pinker's point is that language does not have words for all the varieties of emotional experience, and part of the problems we have with finding common ground in this thread is that the issues are emotional (not a bad thing!).
Chesterton:
"Man knows that there are in the soul tints more bewildering, more numberless, and more nameless than the colours of an autumn forest;...Yet he seriously believes that these things can every one of them, in all their tones and semitones, in all their blends and unions, be accurately represented by an arbitrary system of grunts and squeals. He believes that an ordinary civilized stockbroker can really produce out of his own inside noises which denote all the mysteries of memory and all the agonies of desire."
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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"It would be unwise to pave Yosemite"
It's already paved, why would it be unwise?
You pave everything else.
The world is one, not separated into paved and not paved.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Gobee- "He who began a good work in you will perfect it in Christ Jesus".
That is exactly what Christ was doing in me that afternoon when I was twelve years old, "perfecting a good work" which began when Christ came into my life at eight years old when I cried out "Jesus please help me".
He let me know that to harbour bitterness and hate was wrong. Even though at that young age, I had thought it was the right response to such an evil person.
"I will never leave you nor forsake you". My life is a testimony to that, although I have many times wandered away from Him.
If you choose to ascribe my story to nothing more than a conditioned response, that is your choice. "An inferior emotion for those who lack the foresight to consider the implication of their actions"(to quote weschrist)!!
Well weschrist, I am certainly thankful that a loving God thought more of me than someone who at 12 yrs. "old lacked foresight" to the dangers of bitterness and hate. He warned me by striking me with guilt, although I had not a clue why at that time. That is my testimony, for which I am forever grateful. He is a loving and forgiving God.
Trip~
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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The atheist is happy and not crying out for help.
He's not a drug addicted demon or alcoholic that needs help.
Just ordinary person like us all.
All this preaching is aimed at this idea all these people are fuked up and crying for help.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:56am PT
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weschrist- "Why throw in terrible choices".
I only got as far as the above quote because it is late and I have other things to do. God crated the angels first, and I am sure you have heard of SATAN. I here little or no ranting or raving in regards to SATAN, of course not. That would be biting the hand that feeds so to speak, just never happens. Well obviously you believe in either so where do we go from here? Besides I type very slow, and seem to end up a question or two behind.
He created us because He wanted us to love Him foremost. There is another character in the picture, I believe he is called SATAN. Satan hates man because we were made in the image of God. We have the choice to choose our destiny, serve the god of this earth Satan, or serve Jesus Christ. Eventually, at the judgement, "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, Jesus Christ as Lord". I am glad I have done so here. For then it will be to late for your eternity shall be sealed.
Would you want someone, a wife, husband, or child to have to love you, to have to follow you? Eden was perfect, much of what you, weschrist, desire and describe as the way God should have made it like here.
There is another created being weschrist, lets not leave him out of the picture. Much of the evil in the world is the result of mans own selfish desires. Simply to satisfy his own lusts/greed. Satan's desire is to be worshiped as god. His plan to do so is falling into place just as described in the Bible. One world government, economy, religion. Israel at the forefront, the temple will be rebuilt, where he will be demanded to worshipped as god.
It was prophesied thousands of years ago that Israel would return to be a nation after 1900 yrs of persecution, after being driven to the four corners of the world. That China would amass an army of 200,000,000 million men. There were not even that many people in all the world then. In the 1960's Mao TSe Tung announced, we now have the ability to amass an army of 200,000,000. And that Russia will form an alliance with Persia(Persia changed it's name to Iran in 1937), and attack Israel...read the papers, it is developing, it will happen. And many more prophesies you neglect to acknowledge because you have closed your mind to "such a myth as the Holy Bible"(to quote someone here).
What can I say, I just gave you a personal example of a loving God intervening in my life at 8 and 12 years old. You decide for yourself. Because that is what it is all about, your decision/choice, free will.
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