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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Personally, I've placed about two bolts in Yosemite. I've done a lot more R rated climbs than sport climbs. I just don't have a problem with this one and have stated why on this thread.
Wasn't saying Coz left a mess up there, just that if you leave fixed lines up and the weather goes to hell or mom gets sick, you could be stuck with a mess that you might try to hire someobody else to clean up
Peace
Karl
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 22, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Just noticed this but have barely skimmed.
Yes, we left some trash.
There was miscommunication between us about who was packing out what.
I am quite humiliated.
Yes, we acknowledged it to Jesse and his crew.
Tried to go up and pack it out myself, but they already had.
Yes, we were fined and we paid.
I'm off to pick up my daughter at school and am busy after.
I'll be back tomorrow to consider your comments and respond.
Doug
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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I already spoke about the trash issue.
As for the route, I'm tolerant of a bunch of different styles. I personally appreciate when people put up routes with a view toward stoking out other people instead of saving time and money or having their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future.
As it stands, it seems to hardly matter except in our minds. Southern Belle has had about 3 or 4 ascents in 20 years and nobody is going to do Growing Up even though supposedly safer and stellar. Is it the Hiking? That's what a hardman who I tried to talk into going up there (not with me) said.
We just like to be dyed-in-the-world traditionalists. Guess what, the next generation will decide, so it's good folks have stated their case here for future reference
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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I know it's a long thread Chief but DR has written extensively about many of these issues in this thread when it was still news. How many times does a guy have to explain himself?
Peace
karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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karl,
do you condone leaving shet in the yose backcountry?
this is truly a sordid tale. this makes wings of steel look absolutely puritan and see how much angst there was with those threads...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Leaving garbage in the backcountry = BAD
Having the ballz to come on here and face his embarrassment = GOOD
A lot of internetters would just be defensive and pose and shout about all the things they did right, and how they were misunderstood and such.
DR coming to the table basically with his hat in his hand is more than many here could muster. And we see people here all the time who just can't admit they were wrong.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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I personally appreciate when people put up routes with a view toward stoking out other people instead of saving time and money or having their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future.
Their own personal adventure at the expense of those in the future...
This idea saddens me. The personal adventures of great climbers do not rob from the future, they define it by raising the bar.
So what if Southern Belle has only a handfull of ascents. I still say that route is a gift to the future, a great challenge rarely met. This as yet unclimbed (bottom to top) Growing Up (can anyone suggest a more arrogant name?) is another story...
A lot of internetters would just be defensive and pose and shout about all the things they did right, and how they were misunderstood and such.
DR coming to the table basically with his hat in his hand is more than many here could muster. And we see people here all the time who just can't admit they were wrong.
DR is not your typical internetter. He is a well known, well published figure in climbing. He has no choice but to respond, what else could he do?
DR’s books and writings were a big influence on my climbing style and the choices I made along the way. I am confused by this route and the choices he made. If I could snap my fingers and have him over for dinner at my home to try to get to the nut of it I would… Most cordially I will add.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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Gotta agree there, Karl--your opinion about leaving routes to "stoke" future parties is sadly misguided.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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DR’s books and writings were a big influence on my climbing style and the choices I made along the way. I am confused by this route and the choices he made. If I could snap my fingers and have him over for dinner at my home to try to get to the nut of it I would… Most cordially I will add.
Me too Kris....me too.
I know that he explained, or tried to explain his turnaround, but I still don't get it. JB stuck by his guns, that DR helped design and define.
How he was convinced that this was somehow better.
I respect he and Sean as people and climbers, but this route just rubs me wrong somehow. I guess I can't put my finger on it either. This route by itself will not destroy Half Dome, I just can't get over the idea that so disagrees with everything I was taught by so many of you....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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One of you guys should at least climb up and try the route if it's so unadventurous and see wassup.
How long you want to kick the guy?
Totally reminds me of Robbins wailing about the Dawn Wall, chopping it, and then saying it was a mistake. None of ya'll diss the Dawn Wall these days.
Maybe he's just ahead of his time and yall don't like it just like they didn't like hangdogging or using ANY bolts for pro.
I don't really have a dog in the game cause I just climb what I like. It's when you hang your ego validity on your climbing ethos that you crap bricks when somebody doesn't dance to your tune
Choose your hero, if you know the whole scoop, they usually did something you don't approve of at sometime. Even Jb.
Peace
karl
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Wow, you guys gotta get over yourselves. It ain't the 70's anymore in case you haven't noticed, rapbolting has been in the Valley for awhile now, get used to it.
There's lots of routes on EL Cap that go free but most people choose to do them as aid lines, doesn't this get your panty's in a bunch? I mean free is free right? why continue to aid whats been done in the purest style?
As far as garbage in the backcountry? what about those cables on Half Dome? thats as trashie as it gets. The Park Sevice needs to get a big fine and take that crap down. . .
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Rick,
> DR and his past decades of ranting the "CLEAN" deal.
>
> He knows/knew better and was the leader of this group.
DR was not the leader of the GU group, Sean was.
Or do you mean DR was the leader of the "CLEAN" group?
As in using nuts vs. pins? That would be a bit of a random association.
Would it mean DR is in trouble for anything "nonclean" that he does,
like maybe not taking a shower every day in the backcountry? :-)
DR explained it was a miscommunication about who was going to carry what.
Sean's responsibility, since Sean was the one going back to do the last climbing on the route.
He and Sarah used the fixed lines to jug up and then led the rap bolted upper third.
I suppose ideally, DR would have checked with Sean about whether all was cleaned up after the last of the climbing. But Sean may have been hard to find - I recall he went back to Vermont to look for work, then eventually ended up in Boulder. The delayed cleanup is not good, but it's (say, 90%) on Sean. He tried to get help to finish it after he left, but wasn't able.
Are you saying it's 50% DR's fault? 100%? 25%?
Just because DR helped promote climbing with nuts, and helped stop the pin scarring on free climbs?
It seems a bit ironic to expect him to solve all of climbing's problems....
I agree the mess kinda sucked, but it's cleaned up thanks to Roger, Jesse, etc., so time to move on, I think.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Some of you are complete asshats!!!
I don't understand the dilemma.....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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It ain't the 70's anymore in case you haven't noticed, rapbolting has been in the Valley for awhile now, get used to it.
That's right, how could we have possibly missed that?
BullW, you were around for all that old school ethic back in the day.
Do you really think it's righteous to just abandon it all in favor of the next high grade number, the next mag article, the next youtube video, the next sponsor?
Our old ideals have no merit. The young guys have shown us the light. There is no place for tradition or those that came before. Cast them off to hail the new god moloch.
We should just call open season and have a free for all rap-bolt-fest.
No rules about rap bolting, or any other kind of protection principles, just go for it boys!!
Is that what you're saying?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Why not just have giant, long caving ropes, and we can all just top rope everything? Don't have to fuss with all those bolts, drills and all the rest of that expensive stuff. Keeps the rock pristine too.
If you make it up without using tension or falling, you've done a good job. If not, go back up and try it again sometime.
The sense of adventure is a subjective thing. A person without much experience could have more of an adventure top roping than someone else leading in traditional style. It all depends on the experiencer.
Renouncing everyone else's concepts of style is exhilarating.
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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Since this is all about opinions really I guess I'll give mine too. I personally don't have a problem with rap-bolting in and of itself (I do live in the Red after all), but it was the egregious spray that accompanied this particular route (a big flashy magazine article, a high-profile video) and the fact it was on Half Dome that really put GU over the top.
Plenty of us rap-bolt, as well as do ground up routes, we just tend to keep the sport routes in the Valley a bit more quiet and just kind of hope people enjoy them and that's that. And I don't think I could ever bring myself to rap bolt something as iconic as Half Dome... when the crack ran out, I would just think, well that's that--an absolutely amazing 8-pitch 12a crack climb! Why continue desperately to hack a way to the top? And this is no "route for the masses" or for future enjoyment either--there is a 13a slab traverse guarding the hundred or so bolts that hold your hand all the way to the top on 5.10 terrain!
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Bullwinkle, are you kicking sand in the face of Anderson's ghost?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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survival... i think you're being a little extreme in your a*#essment of deans post.
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Mimi
climber
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Dean enjoys being contrary. Never been formally introduced to the man.
You have to agree with his second point but only if the aiding is done clean and not on soft rock. Clean aid (hammerless except for anchors) on solid granite should be acceptable. Just saying.
The first point is plain silly.
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pimp daddy wayne
Gym climber
Manchester, VT
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Apr 23, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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give it up
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