What is "Mind?"

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WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
Blood flow in the brain is a prime example. Blood travels through a network of vessels and can be re-routed to specific parts of the brain as needed.

So does hydraulic fluid to operate the different parts of machines.

Still ultimately requires a living operator even the ones software/hardware controlled.

Machines even human bodies need a living being to operate them.

When the human body breaks down the living operator, the self, leaves to get a new body.

Death is an illusion due to the defective material senses not being able to see the spiritual self.

Only the self itself can see itself and not with man-made material instruments.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 04:10pm PT
And the many problems with hydraulics is why Boeing eliminated them on the 787.
See, there is intelligent life!
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2019 - 04:35pm PT
Good luck Mike with the cat epic. Thinking about you and yours. You the man!
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Mar 8, 2019 - 07:14pm PT
That's a rough experience for you and your wife, Mike. Best wishes for a good outcome. It's good that you let us hear what's going on.

I, too, have been hooked up to an IV in hospital, for an aggressive infection in a foot. Took about a week and everything was okay. No one knew where it came from, least of all me. At first I could only guess I had a stress fracture but eventually it got seen by a doc.
Trump

climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
After 4 billion years of sunk costs, the right choice of mind is to not be a cat. Praise humans!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 8, 2019 - 08:54pm PT
the mindset Julia Galef is passionate about...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RLfVxTGH4
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 9, 2019 - 08:21am PT
It's very kind of everyone to give care to my wife's situation. Cats. She says she'll return to the cat shelter when she gets better, but I wish she wouldn't. My dear wife can be a stubborn person. Perhaps all climbers must be.

Yesterday I made bread and then cut up one of the loaves to bake crutons. They are crunchy on the outside but soft on the inside.


I love how my breads look. They look beautiful to me. Beauty encourages us to do more.

To those of you who are disassembling consciousness or constructing it conceptually, please make sure you build-in the perception for asesthetics and beauty. It would be a woeful event if consciousness did not include a sense of aesthetics.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 9, 2019 - 08:47am PT
Boy, here's an interesting take on evolution! This resonates with me. I'm going to be reading up on this more. In fact, I'm thinking of going through the Khan Academy lessons on organic chemistry to familiarize myself with the basics. The gist of it is that molecules have "evolved" independently (in part) from biological evolution and strongly influenced biological evolution on the planet.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/a-chemical-account-of-evolution/5133.article

Here's the opening sentence.
Humans require a set of minerals obtained through a diet of plants and animals to maintain good health. Indeed, all the elements in organisms are ultimately sourced from the environment. The aim of our research is to show that it is the early chemical evolution of the environment that drives the evolution of organisms – based on geochemical and biochemical evidence – and that, in turn, organisms drive environmental evolution by releasing chemicals. In this article we reveal the interdependent evolution of the chemistry of life and the environment.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 09:26am PT
^^^and the plants we depend on are only recently evolved...

being a person with a geology background, you might think about where soil comes from... the Earth didn't start with any.

A strong criticism of the focus on the gene's role in evolution is that the genes don't interact directly with the environment, the "phenes" do (genotype, phenotype). The environment, and all the other things living in it, produce a "fitness landscape," and it is where all this evolving takes place. This is an amazingly non-linear dynamical non-equilibrium system, the landscape changes due to this evolution.

On top of that, the landscape is literally changing through geological and cosmological (those pesky meteorites/comets, local supernovae, etc.) activity.

So one can (and should) be aware of the aesthetics of bread, which is further enhanced when you include the notion that it is a collaboration with other organisms, yeast in this case, sprinkled with a bit of bacteria (if you are making sourdough), and the grains, converting the solar energy, atmospheric carbon, and rhizospheric nitrogen into starches and sugars.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 9, 2019 - 10:40am PT
Being a person with a geology background, you might think about where soil comes from... the Earth didn't start with any.

A strong criticism of the focus on the gene's role in evolution is that the genes don't interact directly with the environment, the "phenes" do (genotype, phenotype). The environment, and all the other things living in it, produce a "fitness landscape," and it is where all this evolving takes place. This is an amazingly non-linear dynamical non-equilibrium system, the landscape changes due to this evolution.

Strong criticism? Of course phenes do the interacting with the environment. It’s what I was getting at a couple of posts up-thread where I said that it is proteins that are the things evolving. Genes are the code, and that is key. Once you have the recipes for all of those interesting phenes in code, where they can be copied billions of times with little energy, the code itself is now a player. As interesting as the phenes are, they only live for a while. The genes on the other hand, are potentially immortal. And they live in bodies that they have built, btw. Mutations happen to genes not proteins. Mutations occur to code essentially.

On top of that, the landscape is literally changing through geological and cosmological (those pesky meteorites/comets, local supernovae, etc.) activity.

Hey, you’re preaching to choir. There is no doubt that the changing environment is the ultimate driver.

Edit: I've always liked Richard Dawkins' take on thinking of bodies as survival machines built by genes. Each survival machine lasts a short amount of time, but the genes that they house can last for thousands of generations and more. Genes survive through the relative reproductive success of their survival machines.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 9, 2019 - 10:48am PT
Turtleskin Neon Insider Cut & Puncture Resistant Gloves
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 11:10am PT
the physical morphology is important too, the organism as a whole is what is in the environment... and the genes don't get to take credit for everything,

from Kaufmann: 'Cells are bounded by a bilipid membrane. Such membranes form readily in an aqueous environment and, for simple surface-energy reasons, readily form a close spherical surface enclosing an aqueous interior. Many properties of cells depend critically on this simple self-organized property of lipids in water. Are the formation of such bounding membranes and their spherical form "achievements" of the genome and natural selection? To ask this question is to realize that many aspects of organismic form must reflect the natural properties of the building blocks from which organisms construct themselves. How much of what we see reflects such properties, and how does selection enter into the picture?'

the genes didn't have a say in the physical attributes of lipids, but depend entirely on those attributes.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 9, 2019 - 11:50am PT
Might I say, I am enjoying this very much, Ed. Now back to business.

I am not arguing at all that these interesting attributes of the world (chemical bonds and shit) are not important. They are the very things that genes code for.

Are the formation of such bounding membranes and their spherical form "achievements" of the genome and natural selection?
To ask this question is to realize that many aspects of organismic form must reflect the natural properties of the building blocks from which organisms construct themselves. How much of what we see reflects such properties, and how does selection enter into the picture?'

Sheesh, Kauffman does not appear to have a good understanding of evolution at all, IMO. Of course the properties and relationships of the building blocks are important. That’s what genes use and exploit!

For the last year or so, I have been mainly been programming using GIS libraries – mapping algorithms, (which I love, cause I'm a map-lover). When you do this, you commonly first instantiate a map object, and then you write custom code to make it do interesting things. The map object exists already as something that I can code against. I don’t know exactly how it was built, I only know that it exposes some behavior that I can manipulate and code against. The is how evolution works. Once you have a nervous system to work with, you can save code (in the form of genes) that manipulates aspects of that nervous system. This is how life is algorithmic and hierarchical.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 11:55am PT
I think Kauffman is working on where the biological order comes from, it was not there from the start.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 9, 2019 - 12:03pm PT
And, as I wrote earlier, I think that this is where he shines. What I am saying is that, regardless of how life started, once genes and replication came on the scene, the gene became the primary mover of evolution. Genes are what mutate. Genes are what last. Genes build life's building blocks, proteins.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 12:05pm PT
it is probably the other way around, first replication, then genes (as we know them)

obviously, less effective replicating processes will be "out competed" by more effective ones.

The victors get to write the history...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Mar 9, 2019 - 12:10pm PT
I was going to mention the basic cell as another example. Once a phospholipid bilayer closes in on itself what emerges from this relatively simple organization / development is an inner environment and and outer environment, or an inner system and an outer system. So that's yet another example.

Sheesh, Kauffman does not appear to have a good understanding of evolution at all,

There's probably more to the writing than just this. I'm pretty sure he's got a good grasp of evo and ns.

Sometimes we say things simply, open-endedly, short-handedly or in a matter-of-fact kind of way in order to set up or introduce a topic for further convo. That's probably what's going on there.

"The victors get to write the history... "

Good one.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Mar 9, 2019 - 12:24pm PT
True that, HFCS. Sorry, for this -- I realize that it is compulsive on my part. The Road to Mind. Btw, I was unsuccessful in The Road to Lucille.

* Mind
* Intelligence
* Consciousness
* Learning
* Feeling
* Nervous system
* The Cambrian explosion
* Multi-celled eukaryotic cell
* Single-celled eukaryotic cell
* Single-celled anaerobic cell
* DNA
* Amino acids and proteins
* Organic molecules
* Evolved inorganic molecules
* Staring inorganic atoms and molecules
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Mar 9, 2019 - 02:27pm PT
Abstract

A fundamental question in evolutionary biology is how genetic novelty arises. De novo gene birth is a recently recognized mechanism, but the evolutionary process and function of putative de novo genes remain largely obscure. With a clear life-saving function, the diverse antifreeze proteins of polar fishes are exemplary adaptive innovations and models for investigating new gene evolution. Here, we report clear evidence and a detailed molecular mechanism for the de novo formation of the northern gadid (codfish) antifreeze glycoprotein (AFGP) gene from a minimal noncoding sequence. We constructed genomic DNA libraries for AFGP-bearing and AFGP-lacking species across the gadid phylogeny and performed fine-scale comparative analyses of the AFGP genomic loci and homologs. We identified the noncoding founder region and a nine-nucleotide (9-nt) element therein that supplied the codons for one Thr-Ala-Ala unit from which the extant repetitive AFGP-coding sequence (cds) arose through tandem duplications. The latent signal peptide (SP)-coding exons were fortuitous noncoding DNA sequence immediately upstream of the 9-nt element, which, when spliced, supplied a typical secretory signal. Through a 1-nt frameshift mutation, these two parts formed a single read-through open reading frame (ORF). It became functionalized when a putative translocation event conferred the essential cis promoter for transcriptional initiation. We experimentally proved that all genic components of the extant gadid AFGP originated from entirely nongenic DNA. The gadid AFGP evolutionary process also represents a rare example of the proto-ORF model of de novo gene birth where a fully formed ORF existed before the regulatory element to activate transcription was acquired.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/10/4400

For those of you who may need a translation the development of anti-freeze in these fish does not appear to be currently explainable by the usual precise evolutionary mechanisms.


zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 9, 2019 - 02:57pm PT
MikeL

Sorry for your wife and you too.

If she is intent on continuing to play with fire perhaps she might be receptive to protective gloves.

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