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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I can understand how research and investigation could be forms of aesthetic expression, but “play,” humor, ambiguity, etc. seem to be generally missing in the musings of some materialists. Like it, MikeL! This is a succinct way of putting it. I know that I always seem at loggerheads with you and Paul and some others, but the fact is, I generally agree with you once you start with a human being or human beings. To me, that is the proper starting point for the humanities. Prior to that -- the evolution of human beings, is a subject of science, not the humanities. Mind is obviously a product of evolution and so science-based explanations are where we should be looking to determine what mind is. What we (individuals with mind) do and have done with that mind and how that mind fits into a society of minds are the proper subjects of the humanities (but also of science).
I love creativity. I live for it. My scientific world-view on mind and evolution has no bearing on my love for what it means to be human. Let us revel in our subjective world but ground ourselves in the understanding of our environment (nature) and of our place in it. After all, science is more or less just a description of nature.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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In my world, nothing needs getting done or brought into being.
That's the same in my world except for Tuesdays when the trash and recycling must be taken to the curb.
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WBraun
climber
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In my world, nothing needs getting done or brought into being.
There's no such place.
The world is not ours and neither is our material body ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sci. Adv. 2019;5:eaat7603 6 February 2019
Human consciousness is supported by dynamic complex patterns of brain signal coordination
A. Demertzi, E. Tagliazucchi, S. Dehaene, G. Deco, P. Barttfeld, F. Raimondo, C. Martial, D. Fernández-Espejo, B. Rohaut, H. U. Voss, N. D. Schiff, A. M. Owen, S. Laureys, L. Naccache, J. D. Sitt
Abstract
Adopting the framework of brain dynamics as a cornerstone of human consciousness, we determined whether dynamic signal coordination provides specific and generalizable patterns pertaining to conscious and unconscious states after brain damage. A dynamic pattern of coordinated and anticoordinated functional magnetic resonance imaging signals characterized healthy individuals and minimally conscious patients. The brains of unresponsive patients showed primarily a pattern of low interareal phase coherence mainly mediated by structural connectivity, and had smaller chances to transition between patterns. The complex pattern was further corroborated in patients with covert cognition, who could perform neuroimaging mental imagery tasks, validating this pattern’s implication in consciousness. Anesthesia increased the probability of the less complex pattern to equal levels, validating its implication in unconsciousness. Our results establish that consciousness rests on the brain’s ability to sustain rich brain dynamics and pave the way for determining specific and generalizable fingerprints of conscious and unconscious states.
Consciousness is seemingly lost and recovered every day, from the moment we fall asleep until we wake up. Consciousness can also be transiently abolished by pharmacological agents or, more permanently, by brain injury. Each of these departures from conscious wakefulness brings about different changes in brain function, behavior, and neurochemistry. Yet, they all share a common feature: lack of reported subjective experience (1).
Finding reliable markers indicating the presence or absence of consciousness represents an outstanding open problem for science (2). We postulate that consciousness has specific characteristics that are based on the temporal dynamics of ongoing brain activity and its coordination over distant cortical regions. Our hypothesis stems from the common stance of various contemporary theories which propose that consciousness relates to a dynamic process of self-sustained, coordinated brain-scale activity assisting the tuning to a constantly evolving environment, rather than in static descriptions of brain function (3–5). In that respect, neural signals combine, dissolve, reconfigure, and recombine over time, allowing perception, emotion, and cognition to happen (6).
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Together, our results suggest that, following loss of consciousness, coordinated brain activity is largely restricted to a positive pattern of interareal coherence dominated by the anatomical connections between brain regions. In contrast, conscious states are characterized by a higher prevalence of a complex configuration of interareal coordination that, while still constrained by brain anatomy, also deviates from it and presents both positive and negative long-distance interactions. It did not escape us that such a complex interareal coordination pattern sporadically appeared in the group of unresponsive patients. The real-time detection of this pattern and its reinforcement though externally induced manipulations could represent a promising avenue for the noninvasive restoration of consciousness. We conclude that these patterns of transient brain signal coordination are characteristic of conscious and unconscious brain states, warranting future research concerning their relationship to ongoing conscious content, and the possibility of modifying their prevalence by external perturbations, both in healthy and pathological individuals, as well as across species.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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WBraun
climber
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Our hypothesis stems from the common stance of various contemporary theories
Hypothesis: the fancy word for ..... guessing.
Consciousness is seated within the heart and not the brain.
The brain has zero ability to "create" consciousness as consciousness is also never material and is not rooted in the brain.
Consciousness is proof positive the existence of the living being itself as the spiritual soul.
The brain is just a lump of flesh the living entity uses to work in its material body.
The gross materialists can never find the soul with their inferior material instruments because the living entity itself is never material.
Thus the gross materialists always remain in pooor fund of knowledge masquerading their poor fund of knowledge as authoritative .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Duck: There's no such place [as a world that Mike calls “my world]. The world is not ours and neither is our material body ......
“My world” refers to the bubble of existence that I experience, and which Sri Nisargadatta references as “I Am.” (Didn't Yahweh say the same thing?)
(That’s pretty funny, Healyje.)
Cheers, eeyonkee.
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WBraun
climber
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Yep ... I've been right all along you are mayavada, originally propounded by Shankaracharya aka Lord Shiva.
Since you do not ultimately understand the complete mayavada consciousness propounded by Sripada Shankaracharya I'll not go into it.
Other than it's the most dangerous philosophy period, spiritual suicide.
Even Sripada Shankaracharya, in the end, confirmed it.
Even Atheist is so much safer than mayavada .....
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Trump
climber
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Me, myself and I, we’ve eliminated the guesswork. I just know stuff. And the stuff that I know, I know it’s true, because I know that I know stuff. My stuff is peer reviewed by myself. Whereas those other folks with their circular logic are just chasing their own tails.
Take beauty for example. Why does beauty exist? You know - beauty - the stuff I call beauty. I know it’s beauty because I know it’s beauty and I know stuff because I know I know stuff. What other possibility could there possibly be other than the possibility that I believe?
This consciousness stuff is fun. I’m gonna spend a little more of my mind on this, as long as its not Tuesday. Hurray for (my) consciousness!
These are truths that existed before I was born, and that’s how I know. I was born knowing that I know stuff.
Or maybe I understand the processes that created me knowing that I know stuff, and that’s how I know that I know stuff.
Or maybe I’m the one who created these truths.
Or maybe I’m just more conscious than you, more intelligent, more perceptive, and I’ve scaled the El Cap that you’re not even conscious of. I like that one. It has an almost irresistible appeal to me. Heck, I even peer reviewed it!
I don’t know, I just know that I know stuff. You’re welcome to use your consciousness to know different stuff, it’s just that when it comes down to what’s actually factually true, it might not be, regardless of how highly we admire ourselves admiring that pretty consciousness in the mirror.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Ed's Link: "Our results establish that consciousness rests on the brain’s ability to sustain rich brain dynamics and pave the way for determining specific and generalizable fingerprints of conscious and unconscious states."
This image is a result of complicated complex (functions) dynamics dependent on a time variable. It is, of course, an example of weak emergence. JL has argued against resorting to "emergence" in connection with the generation of consciousness because, admittedly, the word is meaningless without knowledge of the structure involved.
I can describe the structure of my image only by citing its origins, the non-linear formulae, and cannot predict the appearance of the artistic icon emerging. The research in the link may be analogous - in a very rough sense - with complex, non-linear dynamical patterns producing consciousness. We might never be able to adequately describe the intricate step-by-step processes that produce awareness. Or not.
Just a passing thought.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Consciousness is seated within the heart and not the brain.
For some people maybe, but this is a very limiting statement.
The "gross materialist" has firmly seated his consciousness in the head, usually behind the eyeballs.
The seat of the spirit is by choice or conviction based on awareness.
The truth, reality is seated in consciousness. The location of awareness can in different places in time and space.
Sadly some are seated deeply in the past, or in some construct assembled by the individual (like believing in the brain).
You can be free from the body and it's parts. It is very refreshing. It really helps make the whole game a lot more fun.
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WBraun
climber
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Consciousness is the person as the soul
Not all what you been saying
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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To clarify: "I" = Conciousness, the awareness of being aware, the true self, immortal.
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WBraun
climber
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Ok ... without that basic starting point of that knowledge, modern science is just plain misleading humanity down the drain .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Looking at jgill's latest grids with frills, I was reminded of a phenomenon that I experience and wonder if others do too? I have a bit of a photographic memory. Always when I wanted to remember the answer to a question on a test I would try to envision the textbook it concerned and then whether the answer was on the left or the right page of the open book. I then tried to zero in on whether it was located in the top, middle or bottom of the page. The answer would then come to me, although I didn't normally have a photo of the entire page, or sentence or word in my mind.
Likewise when trying to remember something that I have not read in a book but learned by some other means, like a conversation, a name, or a place name, I have the sensation that I am doing the same thing inside my brain, scanning different areas for the info. I find if I remember some bit of geography associated with it, the answer will come to me. This has made me wonder if we don't store memories by locations in the brain that are connected to and originated with a geographic locale. It seems like this would make sense in terms of evolution before language?
When trying to place a face that looks familiar, music or a scene that reminds me of something else or a smell, I do not have the same sensation. In that case, I kind of unfocus my mind and don't think of anything and it comes to me. Possibly this means the image is stored a different way in a different place. Maybe the difference between conscious and unconscious memory?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Me, myself and I, we’ve eliminated the guesswork. I just know stuff. And the stuff that I know, I know it’s true, because I know that I know stuff. My stuff is peer reviewed by myself. Whereas those other folks with their circular logic are just chasing their own tails.
The “truth” is you do just know stuff and you know you know stuff through a consensus of like individuals based on your ability to communicate with those like individuals.
Say you have a tooth ache so you go to the dentist and what if he says, “how do you know your tooth hurts, prove it?” And you say, “Well look at the cavity,” and he says, “You have to prove to me there’s some sort of cause and effect there. How do I know that’s causing you pain or you’re even feeling pain?” What is pain anyway? You can’t define it.” And you say, “I know it because I feel it.” And the dentist says, “listen you tooth fanatic you don’t just know stuff, you can't just know stuff, I need peer review proof before I’m gonna help you. Your pain is just your subjective opinion and therefore meaningless.” And you say, "I know it because I'm experiencing it!" And he says, "Your personal experience doesn't mean squat when it comes to truth."
Thankfully we understand the reality of tooth pain because most have experienced it at one time or another and there is a consensus as to its reality and what it is, "because we know it." And so dentists do their job. Suppose you could say something similar regarding beauty.
And then of course there are the a priori forms of sensibility but that's something else.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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How do I know that’s causing you pain or you’re even feeling pain?”
Did you ever boil a lobster? Do you think that whether lobsters feel pain is a question that can be answered?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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The fact that lobsters scream when they hit the hot water is evidence enough for me that they feel pain and that is not the way to kill them.
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