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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 31, 2019 - 10:36am PT
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Interesting last link, healyje. What do you think? Are machines going to become conscious and/or intelligent? I've been saying yes on the intelligence, no on the consciousness, but I could be wrong, of course.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 31, 2019 - 10:45am PT
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From Joe's link:
Lipson believes that robotics and AI may offer a fresh window into the age-old puzzle of consciousness. "Philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists have been pondering the nature self-awareness for millennia, but have made relatively little progress," he observes. "We still cloak our lack of understanding with subjective terms like 'canvas of reality,' but robots now force us to translate these vague notions into concrete algorithms and mechanisms."
Lipson and Kwiatkowski are aware of the ethical implications. "Self-awareness will lead to more resilient and adaptive systems, but also implies some loss of control," they warn. "It's a powerful technology, but it should be handled with care."
This may encourage JL and others to rethink their positions. Or not. Astounding progress! Empty awareness may at some point be achieved via algorithm.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2019 - 10:58am PT
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You can always see that the gross materialists are completely clueless to life itself by their immediate need to go to AI and robotics .....
The gross materialist consciousness has become dead and sterile just like the artificial garbage they love ....
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Jan 31, 2019 - 01:03pm PT
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That other creatures are self aware has already been pointed out.
Is there any test that proves that they are aware of being aware? IOW Self reflective? Maybe this has been covered and I missed it. I googled it and didn't find much besides a gorilla signing it would go into a hole on death.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2019 - 02:05pm PT
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Animals have no propensity for self-realization, only humans.
When a human being does not seek self-realization they are no better than an animal.
Modern material conscious science is just puffed up animalism .....
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 31, 2019 - 02:17pm PT
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It would be ironic if humankind finally learns what consciousness is through self-aware machines that can out-think us.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
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Not possible ever.
You are NOT God .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 31, 2019 - 05:17pm PT
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I'm sticking by my insight of consciousness being an evolutionary extension of feeling more than of intelligence. And with those roots, it seems harder to mimic it in robots through learning algorithms. The way I see it, along our mammalian lineage and now as humans, nearly every memory is infused with a feeling about the memory. It's like there are two databases that are written to -- the "regular" memory database and the "feeling" or meaning database. I think that human mind taps into both, and you can't have mind without the feeling part.
You CAN have intelligence, however. Why bother with mind? Even with humans, the actual decisions are automatic. Why the need for this feeling of personal responsibility for your thoughts? An intelligent agent, programmed to survive, could pass the Turing Test, but not truly have mind, IMO.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2019 - 05:25pm PT
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eeyonkee wrote: Interesting last link, healyje. What do you think? Are machines going to become conscious and/or intelligent? I've been saying yes on the intelligence, no on the consciousness, but I could be wrong, of course.
I'm still in the no camp on both - it's only 'self-awareness' from a human perspective, otherwise it's just Machine/Deep Learning paired with an inference engine allowing the device to 'discover' it's range of motion and gripping capability. Part of the latter learning also provides the adaptive resilience necessary to compensate for things like a malformed part. These are all things humans do but entail no real awareness other than then developing and accessing a dataset of operating extents.
It's still an impressive accomplishment, but one that consumes massive amounts of computer power and energy in the process compared to a human brain.
Werner wrote: Animals have no propensity for self-realization, only humans.
Plenty of animals do but ducks are not one of them.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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When we ask what we mean when we say we know something,
or what justifies such a claim to knowledge,
we are raising an epistemological question
Conned vee juiced ask?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jogill (channeling Lipson) “ . . . cognitive scientists have been pondering the nature self-awareness for millennia, but have made relatively little progress . . . .”
Funny that. I don’t seem to remember any writing by any bona fide cognitive scientist prior to the 1940s. As for “relatively little progress,” I’d say *none.*
Empty awareness may at some point be achieved via algorithm.
Empty awareness is not a thing. It’s not even a state of consciousness, imo. It’s like saying there is no elephant in the room. If there is no elephant, then there is also no “no-elephantness” attribute pertaining to the room. Or, if you ask what I have, and I say "nothing," it is not something I can give to you.
This may not make sense to you, but emptiness relates to the lack of an intrinsic existence if all things are reliant upon dependent origination. “Things” show up to consciousness along with other “things.” You might think of it as a necessary and intractable correlation—a matrix whose elements or units cannot be held out as independently unitary. Most of the discussions about emptiness are scholarly. Emptiness is a conventional distinction. Ultimately, emptiness is empty.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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isn't empty awareness just a state of "real-time" sensory flow? just letting that happen without any interpretive narrative?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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I want to go back to the notion that human evolution has stopped now which I find astonishing. When we look at the rates of autism for example, it is increasing almost exponentially. Is this not evolution ? Some combination of genetics and the environment which not all children/genomes are susceptible to ?
I also have to take exception to the idea that genetic editing will produce non human organisms using human genes. There have been at least four different species of humans that evolved naturally and existed within in the last 30,000 years (neanderthal, denisova, floresiensis, sapiens - plus countless hybrids). Any gene alterations through genetic manipulations in the lab are only speeding up a process that occurs in nature. While we may ethnocentrically proclaim that we, the current specimens, are the only true humans, that seems doubtful if we are manipulating our own genes.
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WBraun
climber
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It's the impersonal feature and form of God.
God is ultimately a person with individuality.
The gross materialists only measure his material energies and thus remain ultimately clueless along with the impersonalists ....
Gross materialists never use their built within themselves spiritual instruments.
That's why they remain clueless ....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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An amygdalar neural ensemble that encodes the unpleasantness of pain
Gregory Corder, Biafra Ahanonu, Benjamin F. Grewe, Dong Wang, Mark J. Schnitzer, Grégory Scherrer
Pain is an unpleasant experience. How the brain’s affective neural circuits attribute
this aversive quality to nociceptive information remains unknown. By means of time-lapse in vivo calcium imaging and neural activity manipulation in freely behaving mice encountering noxious stimuli, we identified a distinct neural ensemble in the basolateral amygdala that encodes the negative affective valence of pain. Silencing this nociceptive ensemble alleviated pain affective-motivational behaviors without altering the detection of noxious stimuli, withdrawal reflexes, anxiety, or reward. Following peripheral nerve injury, innocuous stimuli activated this nociceptive ensemble to drive dysfunctional perceptual changes associated with neuropathic pain, including pain aversion to light touch (allodynia). These results identify the amygdalar representations of noxious stimuli that are functionally required for the negative affective qualities of acute and chronic pain perception.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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It’s like saying there is no elephant in the room.
Is the person saying there is no elephant in the room blind?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner wrote: The gross materialists only measure his...
His? And people wonder why women have it so tough on the Indian subcontinent.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Actually Hinduism is full of goddesses. Images of Mother Kali even show her dancing on the prone body of her consort Shiva. The problem as usual is not the religion but rather the manipulations of it by powerful men.
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What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge?
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