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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2019 - 12:48pm PT
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Humans, all life, are always evolving. There is no escape from natural selection. Genomic editing is subject to the same laws of life as any other mutational process. DMT, while this might be technically true, it is also true that the actual change within a species can vary by a lot. Look at sharks, although there are several species, they really haven't changed much in 200 million years. Why? Because of lack of strong selection pressures. Base is correct in assuming that selection pressures are greatly reduced overall in humans of today compared to humans of the past. That leaves genetic drift and sexual selection as the primary natural drivers. He is also correct in assuming that human engineering of the genome is going to be a much bigger factor than natural drivers in changing the genome of humans.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2019 - 01:15pm PT
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A human being can transmigrate into any of the 8.4 million different types of material bodies in the many different universes and planets
according to the consciousness, it develops.
Thatis the real evolution and not Darwinism.
Not all material bodies are on this planet ......
(The gross materialist scientists are ALLWAYS in very poor fund of knowledge)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2019 - 01:35pm PT
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Again, natural selection is at work, regardless of the source of the mutation. Technically it is always available, but it may not amount to much in humans going forward.
If humans were to start populating other planets or some kind of apocalypse were to befall our planet, then natural selection would find its sweet spot and be relevant again for humans.
On further reflection, I just remember something that I think about from time to time. A Stanford grad marrying another Stanford grad is actually a rather common thing. I've got a niece and nephew-in-law who fit the bill (which is probably why I am discussing it). I mean, of course relative to the sheer numbers of total marriages, it is nothing, but let's just say that this sort of thing went on for a few generations. Where everybody in the family only married another Stanford (let's throw in Harvard) grad. Sometime in the future, we've got 10,000 descendants, a significant sub-population of intelligent humans, I'm thinking.
The above scenario would, indeed constitute "evolution", as I understand it -- at least one way it works. This example of evolution does not necessarily include any additions to the genome, all you are doing is selectively concentrating and reshuffling existing genes, which have huge ramifications for the actual organisms that are created, but none (necessarily) for the genome.
What this scenario does not involve is a truly novel gene, which is another way that evolution works. The thing about the new gene kind of evolution is that it is most effective under conditions of massive culling of an existing population because of great environmental stress -- the apocalyptic scenario.
Where DMT is most correct is in developing countries, where families are large and selection pressures are high. In the developed world, families are small and selection pressures are low. This was Bases's original point.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2019 - 05:19pm PT
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If humans were to start populating other planets
They are already there on other planets and have been there longer than on this planet.
(The gross materialists are always in poor fund of knowledge)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 29, 2019 - 08:12pm PT
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I like PSP also PP's POV, too.
He also referenced my work ethic: No attainment with nothing to attain
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2019 - 08:51pm PT
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MikeL wrote: Darwin’s theory could use some tweaking to include non-physical advantages.
What gave you the idea it doesn't include 'non-physical advantages'? Whether or not 'non-physical advantages' can be traced to specific physical changes in an organism is another question altogether.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 29, 2019 - 09:01pm PT
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"No attainment with nothing to attain" comes from the Heart Sutra and points to an experience of if there is no dominant "I" in the POV/experience then then there is no need for "I" to get something or wish things were different. You end up with the experience of unconditional witnessing/listening.
Unfortunately from my my experience the conditioning of wanting things to be different from what they are ( i.e. traffic jams and cancer) is very strong and consequently I spend too much time wanting things to be different that are not going to change in this very moment unless I change my POV/attitude.
The heart Sutra is an evangelical buddhist sutra that says if you practice hard you will escape that POV of "I" want things to be different than they are attitude and you will deal with it with complete awareness. ( I have had a few beers so excuse the stream of consciousness synopsis of the Heart sutra).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2019 - 09:06pm PT
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unless you have had to hire employees, Ed
I had a stint as a manager which included having to hire... my experience is common, you spend 90% of your time managing less than 10% of your employees...
being a science manager meant having a very long conversation with everyone in the division, which I totally enjoyed (most of the time). Upon moving back to research, those conversations ceased as I had no means of supporting research. I didn't look at that in a cynical way, it is practical for someone to use there time to the greatest effect.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 29, 2019 - 09:28pm PT
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I enjoyed those conversations as department chair. But I found the position required multi-tasking, and that began to eat away at my ability to focus for periods on math research playthings. Back to the faculty for me (a branch of Colorado State University).
As a very old guy, now, I find that my attempts at multi-tasking are dangerous for me and others!
;>(
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 30, 2019 - 02:53am PT
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Some of this discussion is getting more interesting. I was getting rather bored with this thread and endless speculations about how little glimmers of consciousness arise within a random mechanical universe. Even though this misconception is hardwired into our language and social perceptions, it just doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny, as a careful reading of Biocentrism shows. Note the book is coauthored by Bob Berman, a physics and astronomy professor, and carefully walks through how scientific reasoning has evolved. And once you actually start to comprehend that work, they have a follow on book Beyond Biocentrism. Actually I think the books are misnamed, even given Lanza's credentials. Although the role of the biological brain is discussed in detail, the root subject is consciousness, mind, and perception. With due regard to WB opinion of the sciences, the books actually lead you to scientific understanding the nature of consciousness. Trying to discard their work without going beyond a few quotes is intellectually lazy, as these represent literally world shaking implications for the physical sciences, which are otherwise sometimes chasing down a bunch of blind alleys, desperately trying to rationalize disapproven basic concepts, by scientists unable to grok the real world implications of their own research.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 30, 2019 - 07:11am PT
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excuse the stream of consciousness synopsis of the Heart sutra.
I like it. It well fits my current experience of work:
an experience of if there is no dominant "I" in the POV/experience then there is no need for "I" to get something or wish things were different
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2019 - 08:46am PT
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The "I" is always there as yourself.
It's impossible to get rid of Yourself "I" as you are eternally a part parcel individual of the whole supreme "I".
The mayavadi's always trying to merge into the impersonal Brahmajyoti to lose their individuality and become one with it due to their ignorance of the whole absolute truth .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 30, 2019 - 09:22am PT
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healyje: Whether or not 'non-physical advantages' can be traced to specific physical changes in an organism is another question altogether.
How does one get from physical changes to non-physical advantages? What are you seeing or thinking?
PSP: . . . the conditioning of wanting things to be different from what they are. . . .
Everywhere we look, we see “problems.”
Duck: The "I" is always there as yourself.
And no one can say what either is.
Mind seems to be experience. What is experience?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2019 - 09:36am PT
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The "I" is not experienced in the mind.
It's experienced in the heart, where you yourself reside ......
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 31, 2019 - 07:17am PT
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Nothing in the universe is a "problem." (How would That work?)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 31, 2019 - 07:18am PT
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Duck: It's experienced in the heart, where you yourself reside ......
What is experience?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jan 31, 2019 - 07:19am PT
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DMT,
How so?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2019 - 07:34am PT
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The universe itself is a problem.
No .... YOU are the problem.
You are the one projecting yourself onto the universe.
Fix yourself first and all problems are automatically solved......
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