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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 23, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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My Dad was a Christian, and I'm not one, and he was with me my whole childhood
so what ever your father's religion was is completely meaningless
(why use it as propaganda?)
Obama was raised by his mother as a Christian, he hardly ever even saw his father
So to call him a Muslim is Pure BS
and typical of right wingers to hold on to debunked lies and spew them out every time they need them to make a point
Do you think he was born in Kenya?
Just look back in history.
Christians put millions to death if they questioned the Church's authority or promoted evolution, science or whatever
Being Gay was Illegal and put to death, Women had no rights
atrocities and murder against any minority group were common place
All until America started to become more secular, liberal and there was political push back on the influence of Christianity.
And these right wingers want to go back to the dark ages of the past Christian theocracy.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Mar 23, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
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Why are the prevailing forces on the American left so incensed by a Christianity that celebrates chastity, complementary gender roles, and strict family values,
while at the same time they're promising Muslims that they will be happy settling in the very country the left strives to secularize?
People on the left have tried to make them welcome, but has anybody seriously promised Muslims that they won't face any cultural conflicts? Sounds like a straw man to me.
I would probably qualify as "American left". I think immigrants are good from an economic point and view and I generally welcome a multicultural society. But I am concerned with the affect that immigrants, who generally are more religious and conservative, have. My understanding is that Latinos voted heavily for the anti-gay marriage prop 8 and they also voted heavily against the prop to legalize pot (the full legalization not the prior medical). I think both measure were fairly close. If CA had had less immigration from south of the border, that outcome might have been flipped. A rapid, large influx can have consequences.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 05:24pm PT
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I posted:
Why are the prevailing forces on the American left so incensed by a Christianity that celebrates chastity, complementary gender roles, and strict family values,
while at the same time they're promising Muslims that they will be happy settling in the very country the left strives to secularize?
Craig Fry replied
Because it's completely Hypocritical, that's why
...Is there a difference?
Not in my mind
So the right wing is hypocritical. I agree, they're politicians, it's what they do.
So when you say there's not a difference you admit the left is hypocritical?
That's kind of a milestone for you to admit that.
That's not the answer I was looking for, as I said it's not a troll. I am truly curious how this is rationalized on the left.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
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Hey August,
Yeah, poorly worded and does sound like a strawman.
I do perceive the left as more sympathetic to Muslim immigrants than they are to devout Christian citizens.
BTW: I am somewhat agnostic on this issue
"A rapid, large influx can have consequences."
I agree, and I would imagine that many Americans of all political views feel the same. Especially after seeing the consequences in Europe.
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 06:48pm PT
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I do perceive the left as more sympathetic to Muslim immigrants than they are to devout Christian citizens.
wow, Larry, you stunned me with that one
personally, obviously 180 degrees differently from you, i cannot recall even one single instance in my life of the political left first, not being as sympathetic to Christian immigrants as the political right, for example. I also cannot recall the left being more encouraging or sympathetic, as you say, to Muslim immigrants than any other race, creed, or ethnicity of any immigrant group
but I admit that I don't read every possible news source so of course i could be wrong
Larry, can you help me understand from what sources you have information that leads you to conclude, to perceive that "the left is more sympathetic to Muslim immigrants than they are to devout Christian ones"?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
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Norton,
I said Christian citizens, not Christian immigrants.
Christian citizens in this country are socially conservative...ie: the people the left tends to look down upon as being non-critical thinkers, (edit)anti-abortion, God in Pledge of Allegiance, pro-gun, etc.
Doesn't take a scientific report with footnoted sources to see this.
Read any comment forum anywhere. It is the divide in our country right now.
I'm just curious how the left rationalizes the dichotomy that many perceive.
Edit:
I will give you that bigots tend to follow the right wing or Trump, not to say they are all bigots as some try to portray, but I see hypocrisy within both parties.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 24, 2016 - 12:53am PT
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MICHAEL TELLINGER FOR PRESIDENT
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Mar 24, 2016 - 01:16am PT
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it's not even the end of primaries - this should get way more arm-chair red-face action before it is over!
Thanks for your high blood pressure
in support of the indeterminable consequences.
You really show your meaningless
keyboard pounding
to be a refiner's fire
of abject reactive internet drivel.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 24, 2016 - 01:29am PT
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Immigrants of all kinds will grease the cogs of communication, understanding and progress.
The consequences that we all (worldwide) face are for actions already committed. Our job is to make smart actions now to proceed in the direction that we want to go.
To put it in layman' terms. Let them come and educate them about progress. Make allies.
The situation in Europe reflects a peculiar religious compromise and the fact that Muslims aren't culturally invested in the compromise. The Euros agreed to have public religious based education. Now the new wave of religious refugees enjoy religious freedumbs while living in dismal projects with minimal opportunity for advancement. It isn't surprising that there are radical youth. Europe has been dealing with this stuff since the seventies. We need to cool our little scared selves and learn to take a punch. If W hadn't been such a chickenshit he wouldn't have needed to set the world on fire.
Something something. Nobody cares.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2016 - 05:48am PT
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Dingus posted Anti-PC is the new PC. Its just more pre-qualification garbage from those who claim to be garbage-free. Laughable, actually. They're as PC as it gets.
My thoughts exactly. What could possibly be more "politically correct" than attacking Obama for not using the exact phrase "radical Islamic terrorism?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:11am PT
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What could possibly be more "politically correct" than attacking Obama for not using the exact phrase "radical Islamic terrorism?"
I don't know, maybe YOU are dosing on just a little too much Glenn Greenwald or Abby Martin or Salon or Ben Affleck? Just a thought.
....
Anti-PC is the new PC. ... They're as PC as it gets.
Either PC or PS? (As in problem solving). It's easy to sit on the sidelines and bitch, ain't it, flip?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:17am PT
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Half the time, the left are as variegated and delusional as the right.
Look no further than this site. Capice?
The non-religious tend to look down on all sorts of religious types as non-critical thinkers
Plainly there is a positive correlation.
What an embarrassment. lol
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2016 - 06:18am PT
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Larry posted the people the left tends to look down upon as being non-critical thinkers,
The number of conservatives shrieking on facebook about "low information voters," liberals not looking up good sources and the lack of critical thinking is striking. People usually think that those with differing views just aren't aware of the right information. Everyone is prone to using bad data, statistics or research because it supports their preconceived view.
HFCS posted Half the time, the left are as variegated and delusional as the right.
Look no further than this site. Capice?
HFCS posted I don't know, maybe YOU are dosing on just a little too much Glenn Greenwald or Abby Martin or Salon or Ben Affleck? Just a thought.
You mean like when you attacked me for reading people I either have never heard of or don't care about? That kind of delusion? Just a thought.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:21am PT
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Start here.
(a) regressive left
(b) illiberal left
What a mess.
Tell me brainiac, if you don't distinguish "Muslim" from "radical islamic extremist" how does one even begin to consider the difference, the nuance, and have a conversation in public no less. Whether citizen, politician or President?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:38am PT
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Lots of hyperbole going on. I just don't see what all this hair-splitting accomplishes.
I'm on the left side mostly. I don't "look down" on social conservatives. I just disagree with them on just about everything and work as hard as I can to elect people to office who oppose them.
Partisan? Hell, yes.
In 7 months we'll have an election to determine the future of the country. The most consequential vote I'll have in my lifetime, I truly believe.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:51am PT
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The future first lady educating ted cruz kids..
Why hasnt the media chew that up..
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 24, 2016 - 06:59am PT
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Sorry, Pyro, but this is the next First Lady. Big hands, too.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2016 - 07:05am PT
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HFCS posted Tell me brainiac, if you don't distinguish "Muslim" from "radical islamic extremist" how does one even begin to consider the difference, the nuance, and have a conversation in public no less. Whether citizen, politician or President?
Explain to me why that conversation is happening everywhere EXCEPT where people care about this particular phrase being used. The people who care about this politically correct term are the LEAST nuanced and the LEAST likely to make the distinction you describe. Furthermore, the distinction isn't between "radical Islamic terror" and Muslims, it's between people who employ terror as a tactic and those who don't. It's between people who endorse violence against civilians and those who don't.
Dingus: That's great. Here's Dubya to contrast http://youtu.be/MxbT11QlCe8?t=38
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