Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:15am PT
but what to believe in?
who interprets the bible? where is the truth?
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:18am PT

There are a lot of us who do not think that the Bible is only fairy tales nor do we think it is the literal word of God. We each understand it according to our individual personalities, cultures and historical times.

At a more mundane level it is also taught at universities as anthropology, history and archaeology, philosophy and literature.

There is no one interpretation even within a culture and historical time. It is not an all or nothing proposition. It is not a useless book as some maintain nor the answer to all life's problems as other assume.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2009 - 02:27am PT
To give you an idea of how the Bible can be studied in an interesting academic way, here's a kinship analysis of the original Hebrew patriarchs that is used in many anthropology classes.


http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/anthropology/tutor/case_studies/hebrews/

Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Nov 18, 2009 - 08:59am PT
"To give you an idea of how the Bible can be studied in an interesting academic way, here's a kinship analysis of the original Hebrew patriarchs that is used in many anthropology classes."

Unless you are having a Love Feast with God and Jesus is your Lord and Savior your are missing what God is all about.

Numbers 12:3, Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth.

Numbers 12: 5-9, And the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the entrance of the tent and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forward. And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?” And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them, and he departed.

Of original Hebrew patriarchs, Moses was a bad dude!

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 18, 2009 - 09:08am PT
"There are a lot of us who do not think that the Bible is only fairy tales nor do we think it is the literal word of God."
There is a lot of truth in it, It just isn't literal truth.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 18, 2009 - 10:19am PT
probably difficult to defend the bible as a primary source in any academic work...

the bible is the object of academic activity... but using it to convey "factual" information cannot be acceptable, without considering the authors and the origin of the stories. The bible was not written with the intention of providing a factual history.

And no discussion on the many disagreements regarding the meanings of the bible... especially the theological issues (i.e. the trinitarian doctrine)...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 18, 2009 - 11:15am PT
History is always written from a particular point of view and the Bible certainly is. Sometimes it can be independently corroborated and sometimes not. Figuring out which is which is the interesting part. Much of the Bible was originally oral history as well and there are special methodological problems involved in analyzing oral histories. As for the issue of primary and secondary sources, of course a good historian will also survey surrounding cultures to see if their beliefs are similar and which are the oldest.

From an anthropological point of view, the emphasis is not so much on whether any of it is true, but what and why the ancient Hebrews thought it was true and how their customs resemble other nomadic pastoralists around the world. One can write an ethnography of them the same as any other tribe.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:00pm PT
Ed et al.,

The Bible is the inspired word of GOD. To paraphrase the NT is says men spoke and wrote as they were inspired by God, the Holy Ghost. (I'll find the verse and post it later.)

They are words beyond our abilty to write. Yes GOD does use man to write his word, they are the scribes, but he is the author. He can do this with anyone he chooses and who is receptive to his spirit. The words are God's words and can only be fully understood by those who have that personal close relationship to God and his spirit.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it is beyond statistical probability to happen by chance, it is impossible. The Bible Code and other mathematical techniques do prove the Bible is not the work of men. The Bible is authored by GOD. So many ways this can be verified: prophecy fullfillment, Bible Code, mathematical patterns throughout the Bible that are beyond statistical chance, biblical-archeology discoveries, the absolute positive change in people's lives when they come to be forgiven by God and begin a relationship with him (real testimony), science does indeed bear witness to Bible truths, and where it doesn't seem to, then our understanding is limited in some way at this time.

Like I have said before, for ultimate science truth, science needs to grow closer to God, and Christians or believers need to grow closer to science.

You can not sweep this under a rug and make it go away . . .



Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code:

Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blbLke9kLIk&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=0&playnext=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 2 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwMM3-UfuQo&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=1
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 3 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHuEG4nDR0Q&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=2
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 4 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIadU4uz7m8&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=3
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 5 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C53YCyAqGU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=4
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 6 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHmbONyiHU&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=5
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 7 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIWRjt23tI4&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=6
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 8 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km8y10KG-TQ&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=7
Encounters with the Unexplained - Secrets of the Bible Code 9 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RLPhL34RYs&feature=PlayList&p=2FD8CDED3E0DC0A0&index=8



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 18, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
I'm inspired by SCIENCE, but I don't expect you to take my word as literal truth... I'd encourage you to go and find out on your own, and write your own science... improve on mine, find new things... overturn old ones...

I'm not interested in the "ultimate truth," I'm interested in understanding...

nature is the only authority

The Bible Code does not exist... it does not stand up to the statistical tests that it has been subjected to. You can claim otherwise, but you would be wrong. And you don't have to take my work for it, you can actually determine that yourself. Choosing not to confront it with a strong test does not make it true...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 18, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
Ed,

Even code developers/statisticians at NSA have looked into to it and have confirmed it. See the video above.

The video also demonstrates how the critiques are not being honest. Probability statistics do not lie, but scientists can.

You can show scientists who try to prove it is meaningless, and I can show many who can show it is very statistically meaningful.

You can not denie prophecy. You can not denie Biblical Archeology discoveries that do indeed prove many Biblical events correct. When someone says something thousands of years ago will happen and it happens exactly that way in the future, you can not explain it. We can. GOD.

Science thrills me also. But I also know it is a very special tool. It works. But it can't give me salvation. Even Newton knew that.
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Nov 19, 2009 - 12:32am PT
See Dimly
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 19, 2009 - 01:13am PT
Klimmer-

For an outside observer who is not committed to any particular holy book, there is no objective way of determining if one is inspired by God and the others are not.

Even if an outside observer agrees that the Bible was inspired by God (as filtered through flawed human beings who reflected their own personalities, cultures, and historical times), then so must an outside observer agree that the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, the Granth Sahib, the Buddhist sutras and all other scriptures of the world were inspired by God and filtered through humans who also reflected their personalities, cultures, and historical times. Either they all were inspired, or they all were not.

Someone telling us over and over that their holy book was inspired by God and the others were not, is not convincing.The idea that you believe as you do because you just happened to have the good luck to be born into the right group with the right book, doesn't convince anyone of anything except that you are true to your upbringing and culture.

If you had read the other holy books of the world with an open mind and settled on the New Testament as your holy book, then most of us here would have no problems with that. However, the minute you tell others that because you have decided that it is the best book for you, everyone else must make the same decision for themselves, you're reflecting your own human ideas, not God's. In the process, you alienate people and turn them off to the beauties of the very book and set of ideals that you are trying to sell.

In our modern age, people are convinced by whether something resonates with them personally, not by someone else telling us that we all must think alike.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 19, 2009 - 02:17am PT
"The Bible is the inspired word of GOD."

Um, Klimmer, you got any sort of verifiable source for that? Seems just a tiny bit presumptious, don't you think?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 19, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
Seek and you shall find. Ask and it shall be given unto you, as the Good Book says . . .

I've already mentioned many types of miraculous evidence that only GOD can achieve, but then the Good Book also says this about itself . . .

I'll let this authored piece argue the Good Book's inspiration:


http://www.yutopian.com/religion/theology/Inspiration.html
Bible is the Inspired Word of God

Biblical inspiration is defined as the work of the Holy Spirit by which, without setting aside their personalities and literary or human faculties, God so guided the authors of Scripture as to enable them to write exactly the words which convey His truth to men, and in doing so preserved their judgements from error in the original manuscripts. The Word of God as given to us in the Bible is a product of two free agents, human and divine. Through (fallible) human authors, God manifested the infallible and errorless writings, which convey His messages. A natural question is, why God chooses to have humans write the Bible; couldn't He write the Bible Himself much like what He did in inscribing the Ten Commandments on the tablets? Won't this be an easier way in preserving the accuracy of the Bible, instead of through the hands of fallible men? Although God is sovereign and can do anything by Himself, He chooses to have humans interact in His plan. This is one of the biggest differences between Christianity and other religions; with God reaching down to man, instead of man reaching up to Him. We have seen many examples in the Bible, which God chooses to have human interaction. The creation of the Written Word (Bible), the Living Word (Jesus), and Promised Word (Salvation) all share this characteristic.

After discussing why God chooses to have human involvement in the writing of the Bible, lets look at how inspiration is done. First of all, we learn from 2 Timothy 3:16 that the entire Bible is inspired by God, not just partially. It is an important concept, for if we choose and pick some parts of the Bible as inspired and others are not, then the entire Bible soon falls apart. Who has the authority to decide the extent of inspiration, but God Himself. And God made it very clear that all Scripture, is inspired by Him. Therefore those who preach partial and degrees of inspiration are playing God. Since God is truth (John 3:33, Romans 3:4), whats breathed out by God, must also be true (John 17:17) and infallible. The process of inspiration is described in 2Peter 1:21, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. All Scripture was regarded by the Jews as prophecies, that it did not originate from man, but came from God. The Holy Spirit inspired the prophets or apostles to mouth the truths, which was then recorded and superintended (or moved) by God to ensure that the messages were not diverted, misdirected or erred by the fallible author. The word moved in 2 Peter 1:21 is the same word used in Acts 27:15-17, meaning that the boat was 'moved' or 'borne' by the wind. While the crews (human authors) on the boat have full freedom of steering the boat, the motion of the boat is entirely borne by the wind (God) in a storm. The use of this word indicates that the Holy Spirit completely superintended the human author in the process of recording His words. It is important to point out that inspiration was not a mechanical dictation of the Scripture to the authors. The authors are free to express their emotions and style in the writing. It is also important to mention that only the Autographs (the original written documents by the biblical authors) are inspired.

Let's look at what the Bible says about itself. Throughout the Old Testament it was mentioned repeated that the Scripture is the word of God (Jer 1:9, 31:2; 2 Sam 23:2; 1 Kings 20:13). God also instructed His spokesmen to write the message down (Ex 17:14; Jer 30:2). Another strong proof for the inspiration of the Bible is the fulfillment of the prophecies, particularly those relating to Jesus (His birth- Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2; His crucifixion- Psalm 22:16-17, Isaiah 53:12; and His resurrection- Psalm 16:10, 22:22). Because of the fulfillment of these prophecies, Jesus proved that He is the Son of God, giving Him the infallible authority to claim the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Jesus taught that the entire Bible, both the Old Testament (Matt 21:13, 26:31, 5:18 and Luke 4:27) and the New Testaments (John 14:24, 16:12-13) is the infallible and inerrant word of God. Since the gospels give an accurate and reliable record of what He taught, it has been established that the entire Bible is really the errorless and authoritative word of God. Not only can we believe everything in it, but it demands our obedience.

The apostles also attested the inspiration of the Scripture, in both the Old Testament (Rom 3:2) and the New Testament (2 Peter 3:15,16). Moreover, they proclaimed their own writings as Gods words (1 Cor. 14:37), and their messages as Gods words (Gal 1:12; 1 Thess. 2:13).

Conclusions:

The entire Scripture is the inspired word of God because the Bible says so (2 Timothy 3:16). This is probably the strongest argument from a presuppositional point of view. However, most believers would rebuke that the authority of the Bible is what one tries to prove in the first place, so how can one use quotes from the Bible to sustain such a claim. In this case, the fulfillment of prophecies about Jesus, his birth, death and resurrection, proves the accuracy of the Bible and that Jesus is the Son of God, giving Him the authority to claim the inspiration and inerracy of the Bible (Matthew 21:13, Luke 4:27, John 14:24, 16:12,13). Both Jesus and the apostles proclaimed that the Bible is the inspired word of God. It is important to keep in mind that the Scripture is of Divine origin, written through man. Although the authors were free to use their own style and expression in the writing, God superintended so that the final product is inerrant. The entire Scripture is inspired by God, not just partially or in degree. Although most of the Scripture were verbally conveyed to Gods people through the prophets and apostles, only the Autographs are inspired. And because the Bible is inspired, it alone has the final authority.
WBraun

climber
Nov 19, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
And because the Bible is inspired, it alone has the final authority.

Then why they misinterpret and take "Thou shalt not kill" and still maintain huge industrialized mechanized animal slaughterhouses?

They spin the words into "Oh it means murder"

If it means murder than it would have said: "Thou shalt not murder"

Then they say: But God gave us dominion over animals and animals have no soul".

I cry bullsh'it.

Look at your dog and tell me it has no soul ......
dirtbag

climber
Nov 19, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
So the Bible is the inspired word of God because it says it is?

Wow, that's convincing.

I'm an ultra beef cake chick magnet. Why? Because I say I am.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 19, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
So what you're saying Klimmer is that No, you can't back it up. Thanks!
Gobee

Trad climber
Los Angeles
Nov 19, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
Peter Reports to the Church
Acts 11:1-18, Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” But Peter began and explained it to them in order: “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision, something like a great sheet descending, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to me. Looking at it closely, I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ But I said, ‘By no means, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ But the voice answered a second time from heaven, ‘What God has made clean, do not call common.’ This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven. And behold, at that very moment three men arrived at the house in which we were, sent to me from Caesarea. And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Nov 19, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
Ah, for the goodle days, when any schizophrenic could find a starry-eyed audience to buy into his visionary noodlings...
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Nov 19, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
Jan- "Either they are all inspired or they all were not."

The Bible from begging to end is about the need for a Savior. The Old Testament prophesies in detail who He will be through the family of David down to details that only one person fulfilled(hundreds of prophecies).
Jesus claimed to be that Messiah in the New Testament. He stated, as I am sure you are aware, that "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, there is no other way to the Father but through Me". If this is a true statement, could not this omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God(stressing the all powerful here)get someone of His creation to pen a letter to all His creation, and maintain its integrity through out time? It is a love letter by the way "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whomever shall believe in Him shall have eternal life." John 3:16.
The only answer could be yes, if He is truly all powerful then nothing is impossible with Him, and it could be the literal word of God.

Therefore, it is up to you to ask Him IF this is all true(with an open mind)and you Jesus are truly God, I want to know you and worship you as God.

It is your decision. Jesus said it not me or anyone else here. We are only deliverers of the message.

Sincerely, Trip~
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