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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:26am PT
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I thought Hillary had an interesting response, even though she spoke it in what, at first, sounds like double-talk: First, she said "it's a mistake" to call it "radical Islamic terrorism," as Ted Cruz had. Then she elaborated. "You know, I call it radical jihadist terrorism because, you know, it is clearly rooted in Islamic thinking that, you know, has to be contested first and foremost by Muslims around the world," Clinton told CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Tuesday.
In fact, calling all Muslims jihadists makes as little sense as saying Catholics support Westboro Baptist Church because both claim to be Christian. Even Baptists don't support Westboro.
The only case in which differentiating between Muslim and non-Muslim status in immigration or otherwise would be useful involves issues of assylum. Non-Muslims in territory subject to ISIS-type attack have an ipso facto target on their backs simply because of that status, and therefore may have a need for quicker processing to save their lives. If we're dealing with ISIS itself, though, Shia adherents are in as much danger as Christians, B'hai, and others.
While I disagree with Craig about this being a purely political terrorism, because they base their justification of terrorism on a plausible, if evil, interpretation of their relligious texts, we need to be careful to specify exactly what "religion" is involved. It's not just Islam, nor Sunni, or even Wahhabist, but a particular strain of it. We not only commit injustice when we tar with too broad a brush, but we set ourselves up for failure as well, because we choose to try to find a needle in a haystack by examining each straw, rather than using a magnet.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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That's a snippet taken out of context and does not in any way accurately represent her very coherent thoughts on the matter. She's about to give a speech on at Stanford on counterterrorism, maybe catch it if you have the time. Doubt you'll hear anything about patrolling Muslim neighborhoods in the US.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:41am PT
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The most tired, worn-out term of this election--already--is "political correctness."
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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But, dirt, if it's labeled "PC" by the Anti-PC League it must be bad, right? And the opposite must by good?
In fact, if a candidate's only qualification is being "anti-PC", that's enough, correct?
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:46am PT
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Yes, obviously.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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That's a snippet taken out of context and does not in any way accurately represent her very coherent thoughts on the matter.
Your statement confuses me. I understood the context to be criticism of Cruz calling it "radical Islamic" terrorism, and stated that. She calls it "radical jihadist" terrorism, which - to me at least - clearly differentiates between Islam and radical jihadists.
Her statement about it being something that has to be contested by Muslims referred to the radical, antisocial "thinking" that purports to be Islamist, at least as I read the quote. This doesn't differ from Christians contesting the positions of Westboro Baptist Church as, in any way, representing Christian thought.
What am I missing?
Thanks.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 12:10pm PT
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Fattrad wants in on this discussion:
"It is a clash with the religious-political leaders of various nations and denominations. Just ask the Imams of Pakistan what they think of democracy or the US, or the religious leaders of Saudi Arabia". On to politics, "Trump is a disaster, it will go to a brokered convention with none of the current candidates getting the nomination".
"And, a comment on ST, who are the idiots who complained about Werner, a total group of losers".....
[JE editorial comment on fattrad's last statement: It was never made clear to me if Werner is banned or simply using his time more wisely.]
fattrad and John
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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Hey fatty!!!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 23, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
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Interesting that those who like to compare to Muslim terrorists to Christians don't seem to come up with a better example than the Westboro Baptist Church (the obnoxious whackos who go around with signs saying things like God Hates Fags and "protesting" at funerals).
Carrying obnoxious posters and like a d#@&%ebag isn't quite the same thing as genocide, bombing, shooting, raping, destroying antiquities, is it?
Obama's best effort to call out Christian "terrorists" was to invoke the crusades. That may be an apt comparison in some ways, but it's got a little problem that you all can probably figure out . . .
From Mr. Fry:
Our military has 1000s of Muslims, our Police forces, teachers, scientists regular folks; we have to avoid singling them out, that's what ISIS wants, for us to go on a holy war against Islam Let's see, our military has Nidal Hasan (Ft. Hood shooter).
Apparently there were lots of indications that Hasan was a muslim fanatic and could go on a terrorist rampage at any time, but the PC crowd was afraid to take any action against him.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
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Fair point, Blahblah, but I was comparing Westboro and the rest of Christianity because the doctrine of Westboro is such an outlier. There are certainly more radical jihadists than there are Westboro-doctrine adherents, but that wasn't the comparison I was trying to make. I was simply trying to argue that one cannot fairly or usefully use an outlier to represent an entire population.
If we want to get into Biblical Christian doctrine, however, Jesus condemned hatred and murder equally. In fact, in a statement that has quite a bit of relevance to at least one internet forum I know, I could translate the Greek from Matt. 5:21-22 as follows: "You have heard it said of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever calls his brother an idiot will be liable to the hell of fire." [emphasis mine]
John
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 23, 2016 - 01:30pm PT
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The anti-planned parenthood killer was doing it out of Christian beliefs.
The guy who killed all the blacks at a church last year was affiliated with a Christian Organization.
As far as our Country goes, 100s of times more killing is conducted by Christians, fact.
Do we need to survail Christian neighborhoods and Churches
If you fear dying yes, if you want extreme blow back, then go ahead.
One or 2 crazies out of millions does not make the whole population responsible.
No Muslim should have to apologize for what some crazies did.
Not until you blah, blah, apologize for the planned parenthood killer and all the other death at the hands of Christians.
As far as the PC goes, I will have to watch all Christians for now on, we don't want to be too PC on them, they obviously want to kill, they've killed before, the bible's full of killing, rape, pillaging and other evils, that's what the bible teaches.
Take revenge, kill the heathens and blasphemous, it's in there somewhere
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 01:48pm PT
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Why are the prevailing forces on the American left so incensed by a Christianity that celebrates chastity, complementary gender roles, and strict family values,
while at the same time they're promising Muslims that they will be happy settling in the very country the left strives to secularize?
Not a troll, just truly curious about that.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 23, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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WHY??
Because it's completely Hypocritical, that's why
Why are the prevailing forces on the American right so incensed by Islam that celebrates chastity, complementary gender roles, and strict family values,
while at the same time they're promising Christians that they will be happy settling in the very country the left strives to secularize?
Is there a difference?
Not in my mind
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
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Well,
the refusal of the Senate Republicans to add a 9th Supreme Court Justice could very well work against their own judicial outcome preferences
without Scalia to provide the 5-4 majority to overturn the lower courts' decisions requiring adhering to the government's law mandating contraceptive healthcare,
it is very likely the court will end at 4-4 which allows the mandate to stand
Another Justice in place could have well given the republicans the 5-4 votes to
overturn, and even if it went 5-4 to uphold that is no worse than 4-4 to uphold
Am I reading this right, John?
what is even stranger than conservatives inflicting self harm is that all the Little Sisters of the Poor had to do is sign a form saying they object to the mandate and they would be off the hook of providing contraceptive coverage, but no, they would not sign
WASHINGTON — The Little Sisters of the Poor and other religious groups want the Supreme Court to free them from the government’s requirement that they sign a form to opt out of providing contraceptive coverage to the women who work for them.
Without the late Justice Antonin Scalia on the bench, the court on Wednesday heard their pleas in a contentious hearing — likely to lead to an even split along ideological lines — in which the groups’ claim to religious freedom was pitted against the Affordable Care Act’s requirement that female employees have wide access to contraceptive services.
refusing to allow a 9th Justice in cases like this, and there are more coming up,
is like McConnell pointing a gun at his foot, firing, and then blaming someone else....
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 23, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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Dingus, you don't understand
1) it is Obama, or Obummer, never President Obama
2) he is only 50% white and his name sounds so foreign and strange and at first kinda hard to pronounce so perhaps Muslim, and Hawaii really isn't one of 50 states anyway
3) he is a Democrat, and well you know, they oppose God and Guns, and favor Gays
therefore, on general principle, every single thing he says and does must, must be
viewed with great suspicion, be immediately criticized...by the Merikan 14 year olds
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Mar 23, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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The anti-planned parenthood killer was doing it out of Christian beliefs.
The guy who killed all the blacks at a church last year was affiliated with a Christian Organization.
I'll give you the anti-panned parenthood killer and other abortion doctor murders. So add them all up and see what the number is.
You don't get the guy who killed the blacks at the church. Remember we caught you fibbing on that on in the relevant thread--the killer never made any statements that linked his killing to any religious beliefs and he never stated that he had any religious beliefs.
The best you can could come up with was a statement of someone in the church his family attended that the killer had, apparently some years before, attended the church (as a child, if I recall).
The issue is not whether any particular killer may self identify as a Christian or a Muslim or any other religion (and remember, we don't even have a good reason to think the church killer self identified as a Christian, but that's irrelevant to this point). The issue is whether the killers themselves say that their religion is their motivation for their murders.
You got anything other than abortionist murders? There may be some others, but I can't think of any. (And how many abortionist murders have their been? My 10 second Googling shows 11.)
We've got many thousands of recent murders committed in the name of Islam, together with untold rapes, mayhem, destruction, etc.
Norton--remember, if "Obummmer" renounced being a Muslim in many countries he could be legally put death--apostasy is punishable by death, and if you're father is a Muslim, you're a Muslim.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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and now helping to repair the wounds the U.S. caused in Argentina
We put the junta in place in Argentina? Really? Oh, sorry, I forgot we're
responsible for everything bad that's ever happened. Somehow I missed
how we threw people out of airplanes off the Argentine coast. But I'm
sure we were responsible for them trying to take the Falklands and I know
we ruined their economy 3 times in the last two decades because we were
mean and wanted our bonds paid back.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 23, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
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You don't get the guy who killed the blacks at the church. Remember we caught you fibbing on that on in the relevant thread--the killer never made any statements that linked his killing to any religious beliefs and he never stated that he had any religious beliefs.
Wrong
You just would not accept his Christian affiliations because some right winger said he wasn't.
He said he was a Christian, he was linked to radical racist Christian groups, that's what the links I read said
So I was not fibbing, as you say.
EVERY AMERICAN that Kills is most likely a Christian, since this Country is mostly Christian.
Every murder is done by either an Christian, atheist, Muslim, Hindu or whatever.
So simple math says that Christian kill the most in America
and atheist's are last, they do the least amount of killing percentage wise
So it makes sense that Religions cause the murder rates to increase.
I didn't see the Terrorists saying they were killing because of Religion or what Mohammad said, they were killing because it's philosophical war.
maybe you can point out where they said it was for religion, since we all missed it.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 23, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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Humor appreciated.
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