What is "Mind?"

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cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 12, 2014 - 05:51pm PT

An aperiodic Penrose tiling, based on two shapes.

http://plus.maths.org/content/trouble-five
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
Ward,

Did you look into the credentials and publications of David D. Olmsted?
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 12, 2014 - 06:02pm PT



MH2

climber

Jun 12, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
Ward,

Did you look into the credentials and publications of David D. Olmsted?

Uh-oh was he the guy once involved with faking frog studies as part of an elaborate insurance scam involving the Surinam State Department and cartel uranium smugglers?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2014 - 06:14pm PT
Artificial Intelligence...just add water...


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
the chart above outlines the history of the human brain,
but it leaves unanswered the question of the evolutionary advantage of having such a brain.

most evolutionary arguments have to answer the question how the energy required to "build" and "operate" this structure is compensated for by having it.

Evolution is a pretty ruthless process.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Jun 12, 2014 - 07:40pm PT
But it's also a blind one. Adaptations that prove beneficial to species survival get passed on until they're no longer advantageous.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-06/12/limits-of-crow-intelligence

"Animals are very good at learning from their own experience, or via observing the effects of others (social learning)," he said. "But so far only humans appear to be able to simply observe an effect in the world, and, without reference to their own behaviour or other humans, then create a novel behaviour to cause the effect."
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jun 12, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
Ward, thanks for the reference to the Scientific American article summarizing all the meditation and brain studies.

Meanwhile, here's an article about our own Dr. F.,
http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=33216

No wonder he doesn't always have time to post.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
"...advantageous"

energy is the way to quantify this
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 12, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Didn't mean to be flippant MHz. I'll check out this Olmstead "character " when I have more time.
My motto is post and then check. Lol
MH2

climber
Jun 12, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
I thought it odd that ALL the experiments Olmsted cites showing how frogs behave when the connection to the forebrain is cut were done over 100 years ago. Interesting, yes. A definitive answer to why the forebrain developed in amphibians, no. I found Olmsted on a site called ResearchGate, which credited him with 2 conference papers (not refereed) and 3 followers.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_regulatory_network
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2014 - 08:42pm PT

most evolutionary arguments have to answer the question how the energy required to "build" and "operate" this structure is compensated for by having it.

Certianly the enviroment is the sole persuader in the evolution of the Brain. Think what it would take 350,000,000 yrs ago, for an anphibian/fish to want to change enviroments. From water to air. To make this leap would require a New or Different brain.An eviroment change IS a drastic suicide!
We know we wouldn't last long naked on the North Pole or in Death Valley.

Somewhere over a hundred and fifty million years the anphibian (after billions of times being knocked out of the race for trying), leaped up on a rock and started breathing. Somehow the breathing brain powered apheratus was pre-installed? Did that amphibian then turn around and yell, "Hey come on in, the air is fine!". Then procede to tell them the logistics of how to make the leap?

This is my new theory? Maybe the Fish over 100mil.yrs of eating flies, consuming their DNA. Could this consuming be the seeds needed to change ones own DNA? Hmmm. Just for laughs, take a look at Americans and their high consumption of beef and pork. Does it coincide with how obeese and lazy we've become? Are we actually turning into cows and pigs?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2014 - 08:50pm PT

Adaptations that prove beneficial to species survival get passed on until they're no longer advantageous.

What would be a proven example?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_nervous_systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_neuroscience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by this assertion:
"Certianly the enviroment is the sole persuader in the evolution of the Brain."
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 12, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
Ward, thanks for the reference to the Scientific American article summarizing all the meditation and brain studies.

Jan, many of my cites were culled from this Scientific American editor's special edition.
Well worth the $4 kindle price.


Consciousness is an enigmatic beast. It’s more than mere awareness – it’s how we experience the world, how our subjective experience relates to the objective universe around us. And therein lies the rub, in that tiny little word “how.” These kinds of questions were once the province of philosophy, religion or perhaps fantasy, but within the last few decades, neuroscientists have added a scientific voice to the discussion, using available medical technology to explore just what separates so-called “mind” from brain. How do the neural and chemical workings of our brains create our minds, our total experience of the world, our thoughts and feelings, and that sense of self that distinguishes the individual from everyone else? In this eBook, The Secrets of Consciousness, we look at what science has to say about one of humankind’s most fundamental, existential mysteries. We begin at the beginning, as they say, with Section 1 on the very nature of consciousness and move on to discuss theories of neural development. In one article, author David Chalmers calls this the “hard problem,” requiring an entirely new theory that places consciousness itself as a fundamental component akin to the forces of physics. In another, leading neuroscientists Christof Koch and Susan Greenfield debate exactly how the neurons and circuits in the brain create conscious awareness. Later sections go deeper into the rabbit hole and examine what we can learn from altered states such as hypnosis or anesthesia as well as the use of formerly blacklisted hallucinogens such as LSD as healing drugs. Gary Stix discusses one study on the possible therapeutic effects of LSD on the intense anxiety experienced by patients with life-threatening disease, such as cancer. Finally, Section 6 explores “The Enigma of Spirituality.” David Biello takes on the search in his article, “God in the Brain,” highlighting studies searching for specific neurological centers of spirituality. It’s been said before, but the brain is the final frontier. Just how that brain creates not only awareness, but also integrates that awareness into creating experiences, memories, and an enduring sense of self—well, it might take overhauling not only how we study ourselves, but how we define our reality in the process of looking.

Amazon wants a review of this edition from me ( wow I feel so special). I shall start on the much-awaited review in due course. Lol. They don't know it yet but this could just make me wanna buy more Amazon.
Many of the articles are certainly sort of cutting edge abstracts of current on-going thinking in fields as diverse as AI ,psychedelics, and of course meditation.
Some very interesting work going on out there.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2014 - 10:28pm PT

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by this assertion:
"Certianly the enviroment is the sole persuader in the evolution of the Brain."

Just IMOP, it's just that if the world was covered in water. there wouldn't be a need for the brain to evolve to breathe. There's lots of animals under the sea that have never seen the light of day, or an idea of oxagen existing. If the enviroment didn't need those animals right where their at. wouldn't they be trying to move up in the evolutionary scale. In Evolution isn't eveything trying to move up to the crowning acheivement;Man?

Or does each speicies hit a pinnicle and call it good?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jun 12, 2014 - 10:34pm PT

well, it might take overhauling not only how we study ourselves, but how we define our reality in the process of looking.

That's a BIG 10-4, good buddy!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
In Evolution isn't eveything trying to move up to the crowning acheivement;Man?

no

The Airplane got it wrong too...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

...or not...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 12, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
maybe Peter can do a photo manip...
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
Jun 13, 2014 - 07:27am PT
...there ain't no bearded blonde white man in the sky

What?? Noooooo, you don't say!

What a surprise it would be, wouldn't it? Someday when you sit in your chair in the sky typing away, you look up and out of the window - and voila! There he is, sitting on a cloud. White robe, long white beard and sandals.
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