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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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meanwhile, back at the ranch............
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WBraun
climber
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Please post on the new thread Wings of Steel (continued). This thread takes far to long to load now, especially for the dialup folks.
Thank you ....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 25, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
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I realize I may be out of protocol posting here given the age of this thread, but, f*#k it. Given the number of posts made here regarding the character or lack thereof about the Wings of Steel boys by people who don’t know a damn thing about either of them I feel compelled to respond as someone who actually did. As a student of Mark Smith’s for several years I can attest to his energy and enthusiasm as a teacher, his commitment and compassion toward his students, and his witty, subtle sense of humor - which likely WOULD be considered uninteresting by the smug, self-righteous knuckleheads on this forum who see fit to speculate on matters and on people they know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 25, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
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Da_Dweeb,
Welcome to the forum.
Looks like you skipped my posts, or perhaps ought to read the extension noted by Werner Braun.
No matter;
The world needs good teachers, so your dispatch noting Mark Smith's good deeds is heartening.
Merry Christmas & Happy Climbing!
Roy
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Dec 25, 2007 - 11:39pm PT
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Since I didn't bump this to the front, I'll add this:
Jesus just did the second ascent (FWA) of this "legendary" climb on his birthday today solo--word on the street is that he down graded it.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 26, 2007 - 03:33am PT
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Jesus is a spray lord. He's just lookin' for more attention on his birthday.
That is all.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 26, 2007 - 02:56pm PT
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re: "which likely WOULD be considered uninteresting by the smug, self-righteous knuckleheads on this forum who see fit to speculate on matters and on people they know absolutely NOTHING ABOUT."
hey dweeb-
what were you expecting to find on the internet?
=)
edit-
oh and randy, why doesn't that damn hippie just stick to the simple but brilliant guilt tripping that has been so successful for him over the last couple of eons? i'm just sayin...
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 26, 2007 - 03:35pm PT
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This thread started before the forum could divide threads into multiple pages.
So new topics were started when this thread got too big, Wings of Steel Part III, IV, etc.
I'd read all of them if you are interested (and a masochist).
A lot of people came to the conclusion that WoS was mainly a question of style, not ethics. But some still don't get it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 26, 2007 - 03:47pm PT
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I bet "JIMB" is knott so proud of the asinine statement he made about Todd Skinner 2 years ago...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 26, 2007 - 03:48pm PT
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Matt - hahaha Nice! Either way, he's got a hand out and is in your pockets.... *grimmace*
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 26, 2007 - 05:42pm PT
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HK- who says rapping isn't bold...
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 26, 2007 - 07:47pm PT
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HK,
are you saying we have to take into account that someone might be dead in two years before we make a remark about them?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 26, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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I'm with Da Dweeb, on this one.
After meeting both FAists, Mark and Richard, and being up a tiny bit on their route, my conclusion is they got a bad rap for doing their route.
The last I'd heard, it still hasn't seen a second ascent, which says something about how severe it is.
WOS will probably remain one of the hardest lines on El Cap for a long time.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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...at least until all the steep lines are played out and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...
(sorry, try though i might, i just couldn't resist! =)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 02:58am PT
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and aiding slabs comes back into vogue...
Looking at that route, up close, it does look like it could go free. At 5.xxxx. And it will, someday.
At least the belay anchors are there for a Leo or a Dean to go do it.
Mark and Richard did a proud line. The continual hook placements on WOS are WAY beyond anything else on El Cap. The proof is there has never been a second ascent. Stop bagging on them, and start climbing their route. Can you finish? Nobody else can.
In 1982, nobody was even thinking of freeing that slab. 25 years, and bubble-gum rubber shoes later, it now looks feasible. The Big Downside is the bolts are old, and like all old bolts, are probably sorta rotten. The SA team will have to repair the belays, as they go, hanging off portaledges, like Window Washers.
Will a team on Aquarian throw their trash onto the SA team?
Probably not.
Mark and Richard were subjected to the worst hoodlumry that Yosemite climbing has ever seen.
Who were those Sh*t On Ropes people? Not a one of them had the balls to climb the WOS route later. They stood at the base, and railed, as if insane, against those who could climb the line, a line that, history proves to date, they could not climb themselves.
Thank God those days are over.
EDIT: The SA of Wings of Steel will be the most significant ascent of El Cap in 25-odd years. Whoever does it will lay to rest the "rivet ladder" BS once and for all. And will come down with a story.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 27, 2007 - 11:28am PT
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A few observations from a person whos opinion means absolutely nothing.
Lambone is a windbag who hides behind Largos broad shoulders. And I bet he bought a unicycle to impress John.
My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical.
The guys who shat on the ropes are low life cowards who have no stones, if this meant so much to them should stand up and take credit for protecting the Big Stone.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:04pm PT
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I think one of the most ironic things about the whole WoS "thing" and how it all went down (and this, I believe is pointed out above, or in one of the other threads) is that this is *supposedly* all about ethics... Yet, the choppers and shitters had to jug the lines to do the chopping. This type of behavior was frowned upon back then, and should be now too.
If you're so high and mighty that you're going to clean a route on "your" rock, you should be able to do so in good style and should probably be able to actually climb the route. Otherwise, you're a windbag sucking hot air. I don't know much else about Dimitri, but this single act alone was pretty sackless and shows a lot about his character. And, since the reviving of this thread was based on character, I wonder what it says about a couple of guys who face tremendous adversity and stick to their guns through it all to reach their goals. In the process, proving everyone wrong about their style, ethic and sack. In history books and other endeavors, that type of character is something to be looked up to. And still, the route remains unrepeated. That must sting. No wonder folks have done all they can to continue the shroud of BS.
The truly unfortunate thing about all of this is what Batrock said above. And I know this is true of other people as well. Others have expressed this type of feeling. It really sucks to be disappointed and let down by the reality of those you once looked up to. Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Dec 27, 2007 - 12:37pm PT
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batrock wrote:
"My opinion of Largo dropped a few nachos when he said the WoS guys should have climbed some of the classics first. Why? Sounds arrogant and ego-testical."
i disagree, and i think that point of view lacks the context of the era and the tradition of the place. climbing was changing, ethics were changing, there was conflict and disagreement all over. climbers self regulated in ways such that we in 200? cannot simply compare our experience to theirs.
i am not defending anyone's specific actions or calling anyone else out for theirs, but i am saying that you cannot tell someone who was there anything about what did or did not happen while they were there and you were not.
my take is that it simply was not a community that was inclined to risk the resource or the tradition to outsiders they were unfamiliar with.
you want to love yosemite on the one hand, with all of its tradition and history and all that the words "traditional climbing" stand for in yosemite, and yet you want to cast blame on people who participated in that history and are responsible for that tradition?
stones and glass houses my man.
it's a bummer that some of those things happened, and richard and mark are likely not the only climbers to ever have been slighted, but maybe they had some pride at the time as well. i personally cannot help but wonder what would have been the history of WoS if they had woven themselves into the community and earned the trust of those who sought to persuade them away from their objective. we will never know.
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