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Kid Cossack
climber
Jopshua Tree, CA
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May 11, 2008 - 03:08am PT
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Along with my other half the late Bruce Hawkins, We never believed in absolutes on how a route should be accomplished. We didn't care whether it was rap bolted or ground up as long as it was done in good style.
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 11, 2008 - 01:29pm PT
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G_Gnome,
"Many trad routes have bolts. A gear only route is often easier to
pro than a trad slab route where the legitimate places to get
protection are slim and none and the only way to avoid death is to
place a bolt."
I agree that many trad routes have bolts. I also agree that a
gear only route is typically easier to protect than a trad slab
route, which can be terrifying.
My first exposure to slab climbing was at Stone Mountain in NC:
I thought the runouts were long. Almost all routes are R rated.
Some X rated routes, 5.10 slab routes with no pro except the
belay bolts. Scary stuff, "cheese grater" falls. All but one or
two routes are ground up, bolted from stances. Without the bolts,
most routes with be impossible, except for soloists. However,
once the (sparsely placed) bolts are there, maybe one or two
bolts per pitch + belay bolts, the game is different. Totally
different game with bolts (albeit very sparsely placed).
A bolt is a bolt, an rp is an rp, and no pro is no pro.
(John B's post: "Up is up, down is down")
Maybe my stance is too extreme, but if I reduce the rock to my
level by taking out the drill, it is a different game.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 07:01pm PT
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Wildone wrote:
"Tradcragrat- there's been some heavy hittin dudes on the other side too. Who is in support of a particular side of the argument, as a criterion on which side to put in with, belongs in high school. Focus on the logic and the argument, forget who says what. That's what I think, anyway."
I agree; I was just responding to this from Kimmage:
"I've noticed the people who are knocking him are all from areas like San Fran and So Cal. My advise to you is to stay where you are. In the city. You are all Yuppies who only care about legal crap. If you;re climbing, you're climbing and that's that. Sean has done more in his life than half of you in here so if yu want something done your way, go do it yourself and stop doggin on people who bust their asses to make a great route. And by the way, Sean is a very respected climber around Yosemite and El Portal and has always out up glorious routes that no one ever thought could be done. Maybe you should accomplish something great before you talk sh#t on the internet about MY UNCLE!"
Carry on.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 12, 2008 - 02:05am PT
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Fair enough man. There's no way you could know this, but Kim will be intensely loyal to Sean all of her life for reasons beyond family. She knows who he is inside, as does anyone who spends a little time with him, and knows that he is true quality.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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May 12, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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first one to 3000 posts wins a new hilti!!!!
in reality i think most people are upset about the "style and location" more than the bolts.
Bolts are a part of climbing and will always be so. But style and respect for style and the respect for wild places is what is making the waves here....
Half Dome is not Smith Rocks, Red River Gorge or Las Vegas...
Half Dome is steeped in history and adventure, and rap bolting it takes that flavor away from a magical place.
I would rather see them do the route ground up, place a few more holes (can be patched later, and you would never know they were there) and climb it in the style that has dominated FA's for decades, than to open up Hd for sport bolting. Once Pandora's box is opened, you can't close it....
ks
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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May 12, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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Wildone,
I respect the fact that Kim stood up for one of her own, and I'm sure you're right about Sean, though I don't know him. But just tossing personal attacks at the other side, saying they're a bunch of yuppies, is a bit uncalled for IMHO. Just like you said, this is a legitimate debate about how to use a resource we all love, not a contest to see who packs the most meat.
Peace.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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May 12, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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So what was the story with Crest Jewel? I heard a vague reference to some banter about that around fifteen hundred posts ago.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 12, 2008 - 08:57pm PT
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"But I wonder how many high profile, traditional climbers exist, who have made a lot of first ascents and never placed a bolt. I seriously doubt that there are too many."
Um, hi. I'm one of them [except for the high profile part]
Isn't Reinhold Messner among them?
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 13, 2008 - 01:11am PT
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Pete,
Glad to hear that you have never placed a bolt.
I was also wondering about Reinhold Messner - after his essay on
the murder of the impossible, it seems unlikely that he would
place bolts.
I was also wondering, if there are more "boltless" climbers in
the category of "alpinists": Mark Twight, in his book on alpine
climbing has this to say about bolts: "Not in my book".
Recently I heard Doug Scott give a slide show at the Adirondack
Ice Fest, and he openly lamented the proliferation of bolt tactics. He had deep misgivings about one of his (American) partners taking out the drill for a short section of drilled
hook placements close to the summit of some Himalayan wall. I
doubt that he has placed bolts on any of his routes.
Among all the hardcore British climbers, as well as the eastern
European ones, there must be several who have stuck to the
boltless ethic and still managed to climb hard, make lots of
first ascents. Was Derek Hersey a "boltless" climber?
Among American climbers, and "rock" climbers in particular,
there have got to be several "boltless" figures who still
cranked at the cutting edge of their times. Just wondering
who some of these guys are/were.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 09:54am PT
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" He had deep misgivings about one of his (American) partners taking out the drill for a short section of drilled
hook placements close to the summit of some Himalayan wall."
Since when is Greg Child a Merrican?
Yes, I read of that. Fortunately they had Greg along with his El Cap experience, and he had to drill a rivet ladder for I believe only the last ten metres or so to reach a totally blank summit. Was this ascent legit? I'm not sure. But summits do matter.
You can climb without bolts if you have big balls, which might mean having bigger balls than your ego, and choosing to leave something you can't climb by legit [no bolt] means, which I sometimes did, and saving it for a time when you are stronger or bolder, or even ballsier - saving it for someone else who is stronger or bolder than you. However this being said, most of the routes I did this for have since been rap-bolted and "climbed". {sigh}
I have placed one lead rivet on El Cap, when I soloed Native Son and pulled off a hooking flake. In the past, I sometimes added rivets to sketchy El Cap belays, until it was pointed out to me that this was not legit, and so now at poor belays I take out the old bolts with my tuning forks, drill out the hole, and replace it with a new belay bolt.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 13, 2008 - 10:04am PT
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AB wrote:Among American climbers, and "rock" climbers in particular,
there have got to be several "boltless" figures who still
cranked at the cutting edge of their times. Just wondering
who some of these guys are/were.
Wow...they don't placed them but they sure do clip them. F*#king hilarious.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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Well, um, yes.
Just like the man who is opposed to capital punishment yet stands in the village square to watch the hanging, I have clipped a few bolts on sport routes in the past. [I no longer sport climb]
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 13, 2008 - 02:22pm PT
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....and pulled on numerous bolt ladders on the big stone, no?
But we shant be PLACING any of those! Oh no!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 13, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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Yep, plenty of bolt ladders I've clipped, too. Believe me, I am not missing the irony and hypocrisy.
Is a bolt ladder connecting blank features on a big wall justified? I suppose, but does that make it right? Or should more first ascensionists use their Lovetrons and Tequila Straws, like on Scorched Earth and on Disorderly Conduct?
But at least the bolt ladders were placed climbing UP, not from the top down.
I still like Royal Robbins' response to his bolt ladder on Tis-sa-ack:
"Why, it's probably the most craftsmanlike ladder of that many bolts in the world!"
See you in the Village Square, or more likely on the El Cap bridge next week.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 13, 2008 - 03:27pm PT
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Ummm, no you won't.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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May 16, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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So that's it?
Have we reached some sort of resolution?
Or have we finally figured out that in incindiary issues such as this, opinions are never changed?
Did we all get sick of people just waiting till the other side stopped talking so they could say their piece, again, with slightly different verbage ad nauseum?
Do we agree to disagree?
Could we get a final quarter summary from the living legend Fish?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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A bit upthread, FatTrad suggested we have a baseball game at the FaceLift. (Softball, I hope.) That sounds like a fine idea that we can all agree on. Or a game of soccer. Followed by a swim off El Cap bridge, and a BBQ.
I suggest, though, that the teams be chosen by lot.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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May 16, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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Andrew can these R/X routes you mention be re-hearsed
and or accomplished by TR?
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Andrew Barnes
Ice climber
Albany, NY
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May 16, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Sawin,
For slab routes at Stone Mountain in NC: it is a 500 foot cliff,
so in theory, it is possible to rap down and top-rope rehearse
most pitches. It wouldn't necessarily be pleasant or straightforward, but it is possible. Just as it's possible to
hike to the top of El Cap and rap down/rehearse certain pitches.
Not necessarily straightforward, but possible.
At Stone Mountain in North Carolina, all but one or two of these routes were established ground up. Typically nowadays, people lead the routes from the
ground up, or they don't get on the route at all. Sometimes this
means taking long and unpleasant falls. I've had a friend who
took a 60 foot cheese grater and narrowly escaped hitting the
deck. I've seen another case where a duy decked from 30 feet,
before clipping the first bolt. He had a bouldering pad on the
ground, and this helped alleviate his fall.
I've had friends
protect 5.11 climbing by using duct-taped skyhooks. For the
most serious X-rated routes, there are probably fewer takers,
and the local climbers seem to like it that way. I've also seen
some people get really comfortable on friction slabs and start
free-soloing a lot there. We won't hear from these people (they
don't talk about their solos), but they do climb - just regular
folks who won't make it into the magazines.
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