Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
Thanks for the post! The studies that tell us what is going on with both the electrical activity and the biochemistry of the brain are the ones most useful to me in understanding what's happening.
I have a book still in my shipping container that also looked at the brains of people having charismatic experiences, particularly those speaking in tongues, and as one would guess, very different parts of the brain were activated including those associated with speech and sociability.
The two different patterns seemed to reflect the differences between personal and impersonal experiences of what is happening, usually experienced as theistic or non theistic phenomenon.
So far, I have not found a study of what happens in the brain with the use of a repetitive mantra, whether that falls under one of these categories or the other, or somewhere in between.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
Jan:
You might be interested in this paper:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_brain03.htm
In addition:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3807963/
Excerpt :
For example, during both prayers and mantras, there was an increase in the synchronicity of cardiovascular rhythms when they were recited 6 times a minute. There was also an increase in baroflex sensitivity. These findings suggested that the recitation of the rosary and certain yoga mantras, at specific frequencies, induce favorable psychological and physiological effects.[4] The significance of recitation of “Om” in twelve experienced meditators found subtle changes in mental state indicated by reduction in the skin resistance.[5] The different types of meditation in Japanese Buddhism showed different brain regional activation. The recitation of Buddha name (Nenbutsu) activated the prefrontal cortex, and the Buddhist sutra activated the left dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and right parietal cortex.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
|
Meditation does generate a biological footprint, but that footprint is not "proof" that the subjective differences in the life of the meditator are "real," as vouchsafed by the EEG or PET scan or whatever. It only proves that the objective markers in the brain of the meditator are different than non-meditators.
JL
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
It only proves that the objective markers in the brain of the meditator are different than non-meditators.
Oh hell yes. LOL
Reminds me of the story of a Frenchman listening to an American explain that men and women were largely very much alike except for some small differences
To which the Frenchman arose and exclaimed: " ViVA le differance !!!! "
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
So, Largo, tell me what you think of this idea:
Meditation Bio-Hacked: 3 short weeks to Experienced Meditator Status
It would be a comprehensive program including diet, organic coffee---the whole shebang!
|
|
Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
|
|
'The Schadenfreude'
As Vedic Ushas deity unfurled it from her gentle hand,
The Schadenfreude ushered forth and itself spread across the land,
This Vedic goddess could not foretell that some men’s heart’s would ner defend,
That what the Schadenfreude would bring might be the portent to their end.
'Twas carried as the pre dawn breeze unfurling from her gentle hand,
And redolent were mists that wending brought from waking sleep the land,
Like nightshades fitful dreams of conquest stirred to growl the cat unseen,
And oh did blooms melliferous decant so sweetly without end,
With hesitant uncertainty I rose and let the dogs go out,
To tread bare foot the firmament as for my shoes I was without,
And there beyond the rustling and pattering of paws throughout,
Lay something vague, obsequious and veiled in shadow 'twas no doubt,
As stealth concealed the Schadenfreude in silence stalking it drew near,
Hidden wormlike, dressed in earth it writhed with malice cold like fear,
And waited 'till its dreaming victims listened with unknowing ear,
To insinuate malignant thoughts to waiting hearts it would adhere,
Now there beyond new light of day the stricken lay suspended such,
The sickness now perpetual it's seed formed of the heart a hutch,
As ropy tendrils wrapped about to rend from it all loving touch,
Embedded firm the Schadenfreude releases none such from its clutch,
Walking between the shadows softly whistling for my dogs to come,
I saw the mornings light approach and listened to rising thrum,
Of civilized society the waking world rolled like a drum,
The Schadenfreude it slipped away concealed in those who would succumb,
I stepped so softly not to wake my love, who slumbered in our bed,
The dogs and I lay down once more as strange thoughts filled my mind with dread,
And knowing that some wickedness replete as I interpreted,
Had passed me in the twilight as it tried to infiltrate my head,
Uneasy then I rose once more and to my study I did go,
To rifle through some books I kept for research I just had to know,
What was this specter in the dark that spread its seed and tried to sew?
Its mordant schizophrenia infecting those it would undo,
In the medical psychology the journals they would shed no light,
As in mythic anthropology the subject murkier than night,
How could I bring to daylight the afflicting nature of this fright?
And through my weary brow I spied a dictionary to my right,
As it opened my eyes focused on this 'Schadenfreude' and read,
"One deriving joy from pain of others," it then said,
"Those who find their pleasure watching suffering in their stead,"
And I shuddered as this thought began to sink into my head,
So contrary was this ailment to my life's philosophy,
And so opposed to all my thinking as a thought should ever be,
So I scuttled it completely and for the moment I could see,
That returning to my slumber was the only course for me,
But manifest in hearts of men the seed is planted to ferment,
We see the news of dictators who crush the voices of dissent,
While hearing of the criminals and innocents that they torment,
And all the evil that men do starts weighing down our temperament,
When hearing how some benefit as others lives are then destroyed,
Those laughing on a parapet would banish them into the void,
Reminds me of the night that I did happen on and so avoid,
The time that I did chance upon and circumvent the Schadenfreude.
As Vedic Ushas deity unfurled it from her gentle hand,
The Schadenfreude ushered forth and spread itself across the land,
This Vedic goddess could not foretell that some men’s heart’s would ner defend,
That what the Schadenfreude would bring might be the portent to their end.
-bushman
05-31-2014
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
Bravo! Bushman Bravo!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
|
I had a very interesting conversation with a very astute AI guy at a slide show over at Caltech. He gave me a whole new way of looking at the challenges facing the programmers who envision someday building a sentient machine. Pinocchio with strings, he said, is not so hard. Sans strings and autonomous (to some degree), presents a far different challenge, and makes phrases like, "mind is what the brain does" of no value whatsoever to the person having to program just WHAT mind IS - not as an idea but as a purely mechanical phenomenon that one can program. I asked him about the idea that if the hardware/software/output got complex enough, sentience would simply show up on it's own, and he said to email him that programing one I figured out how that might work LOL.
Can't broach it now because I'm gearing up for a dental epic. When I fell I hammered my jaw and my bite got screwed up bad. Only gonna cost me all my teeth and about 40 grand to fix it. Wish I could be a machine for the next few days.
JL
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
|
phrases like, "mind is what the brain does" [are] of no value whatsoever to the person having to program just what it does (JL or some AI guy)
No argument there. Long ago the computer scientist who, even longer ago, started me climbing, said that people trying to get computers to do things that the brain does looked at the brain as an 'existence proof.' That is, we know it can be done but we don't know how. If it were easy it would have been done. Long ago.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aopVbZvFJUE
so i watched this discussion between Sam Harris and Chris Hedges.
it was cool,calm,and collect! Sam is almost too cool. being almost emotionless. Except when trying to be funny.he's almost erie. Although, he did bring forth his arguement very well-mannered. which seemed to lead Chris to be a little nervous? Chris's well pre-pared arguement was very good on the reasoning for spirituality. But it didn't answer Sam's question. That is; Where's the reasoning for A Faith In God? First of all Faith. He can't understand why anyone could BELIEVE there's a God when there's no scientific PROOF. He asked to be shown proof that Jesus existed. He asked for the authenticiety for the bible. Exclaiming, "Jesus cant be God just because He walked on water and raised the dead, lots of people have done that..".
Well, if God wanted all the people, say, 1-10,000 years into the future to be excluseivly His. He could surely walk onto the planet right now and do a few supernatural miracles and we could record them proof positive for eternity. Then, when a question arose, we could just look at the video and say "this is how God wants us to be". But, that's what we would HAVE be, because if we had concrete visual proof there would be no question of what the Boss ordered. there would be no individual choice. no free-will. You would abide by the law or die! Free-will allows for compassion, and forgiveness. Two things not found in linear logic and nature.
edit: i hope fast healing for ya JL.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
|
Only gonna cost me all my teeth and about 40 grand to fix it. Wish I could be a machine for the next few days (JL)
Oh man, sorry to hear that, John. Condolences.
;>(
The microstructure of the brain [posted by Ed] resembles cellular automata, where a few simple instructions produce an elaborate graph. Here every three points on a horizontal line have values 0, 1, or 2 , and the point on the line below that is beneath the midpoint of the three is given a pre-assigned value determined by the three "ancestors" above. E.g., set 1,0,0 -> 2 and 0,1,0 -> 1. The initial 800 unit row at the top was assigned random values of 0, 1, or 2. The image is fuzzy because I used the ST mechanism for uploading. It's actually fairly sharp. This was produced by a program I wrote in Liberty BASIC language.
Look for patterns.
edit: looks like fruit man picked up his marbles and left.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 10:53am PT
|
Don't want this challenging thread buried . . . bump
Just 0 and 1. All X,X,X go to 1, except 0,0,0, -> 0
A number of weakly emergent streams develop. Top row random 0 and 1.
|
|
cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 11:38am PT
|
Granite automaton?
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
|
My question - if pattern generation is so, er, easy? Why do we assume pattern recognition is hard? Maybe its as easy as breathing :) (DMT)
A few simple rules generate patterns of great complexity - viz. the first CA I posted. It's just the way it is: starting a process (like invading Iraq) can be fairly straightforward, but dealing with the unpredictable consequences can be difficult. A few years ago Stephen Wolfram wrote a book, A New Kind of Science, I think is the title, in which he laboriously described all the varied ways CAs might explain parts of reality. It turned out to be a great book to mention at cocktail parties, but very few scientists actually read the 1,000+ pages. I only skimmed it; it's somewhere buried in my library.
;>)
|
|
cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
|
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
|
Very interesting diagram. Thanks!
I'd like to know more about the complex brain inside the spinal cord like structure of a fish. Maybe that's the origen of some properties of the chakras?
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
|
Pattern recognition is easy for the human brain. It does that all the time, looks for patterns. It has a hard time handling patterns that are purely random. The eye looks for patterns. Both physical and immaterial, like in behaviour or in trading etc.
If you let some one do something randomly, after a while the person will start creating patterns, because it's easier to do something the same as a moment ago.
I made a kitchen floor, a very big room, and I wanted a totally unpatterned patter. I had to draw each and every single stone on that floor, and calculate the space in between, in order to make it happen. It's difficult to not see and lay patterns.
One of the basic truths in my profession. :-)
(Edit: I know you likely talk about more complex patterns, like history repeating itself, but it pretty much works the same way always.)
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
|
Why did amphibians need a complex forebrain? That long ago?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!