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WBraun
climber
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That's it heavy hitting dudes.
When's the baseball game start?
Trad vs. rap
And you're batting average is?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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great moments in (rap/trad) baseball! Who's making the T-shirts.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I climbed the Fehrmann/Perry-Smith route on Torre Stabler in the Vajolet Towers in the Dolomites put up by the pair in 1908. Pretty cool climb with a great dihedral pitch that went at about 5.6/5.7
done ground up.
Bruce
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Shingle
climber
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Excerpt from Fuller 2003:
"In what follows I use the case of climbing to illustrate the importance of contextualizing cognitive and social borders not only materially or culturally, but also relationally. The analysis tracks changes in boundaries and boundary work through a number of stages, showing how climbers selectively engaged the boundaries created against them along with the boundary properties they preferred. In the first stage, differentiation, climbers opposed to the innovations created boundaries that marked the practices as different from standard ascents. They did so in two separate ways. by using a hierarchical spectrum of "ethics" to downgrade ascents, and by segregating them as a different kind of climbing. Those using the new practices initially accepted the hierarchical logic of these distinctions but attempted to downplay their relevance. Rejecting segregation, they blurred the boundaries differentiating the new practices from the old. This was met in turn with attempts to make the boundary more rigid, and differentiation was replaced by exclusion and polarization, a stage I compare to the division between heresy and orthodoxy. While climbers on the other side did try to challenge this border as well by denying the logic of distinctions, ultimately they opted for a reciprocal segregation, agreeing with the bases of distinction enacted by their opponents, but reversing the boundary's hierarchical structure. Although this stage represents the height of the conflict, it also set the stage for the final period of normalization, in which the boundary between the two entities remained cognitively, but not politically, salient, its rigid hierarchical axis of differentiation transformed into a permeable horizontal divide. In no stage were the boundaries independent-they were always constructed against and through less successful alternatives."
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Shingle
climber
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"People tend to oppose innovation when it is perceived as a threat not simply to the cognitive order, but also to the political order more broadly (Bourdieu, 1984; Kurtz, 1983; Lessel 1988). Although the climbing world offers little in the way of material resources or political power, it can provide status and honor (at least among climbers) by the accomplishment of difficult, dangerous and/or first ascents. Accumulating such climbing capital depends, in turn, upon the acquisition of embodied dispositions, both physical (the ability to perform strenuous athletic moves) and mental (the ability to read a route and choose the right moves and to perform under the threat of injury and death).
On the surface, the innovations that created such conflict seem both attractive and relatively innocuous. "Hangdogging" and "rap-bolting" made the pursuit of difficult routes and first ascents easier and safer. Instead of lowering to the ground immediately after a fall, the hangdogger hung from the rope, finding and practicing the best movement sequences so as to be better prepared for subsequent attempts. Rather than place all protective gear during the climb, the rap-bolter preplaced gear on rappel. Sections of rock that had previously been too overhanging andlor blank of features to allow safe gear placements could now be easily protected, minimizing the
risk of a long and dangerous fall.
By making climbs easier and safer, hangdogging and rap-bolting conferred a definite advantage in the race for first ascents, and it was this competitive threat that initially caused concern. So long as the practices were confined to a maverick few they attracted little sustained attention. It was only when Climbing began publishing articles that tied them with whole
climbing areas in the late 1970s and early 1980s that rapbolting and hangdogging became true public issues. Elite climbers in particular protested that those using the practices were "stealing" first ascents, and they worried that past accomplishments would be devalued as the meanings of the standardized grades by which climbing difficulty was judged were undermined.
Issues of competition and comparison would be moot if all climbers adopted the new practices, but because hangdogging and rap-bolting made climbs safer they altered the mix of dispositions necessary for the acquisition of climbing capital. Experience and bravery became relatively less important, pure physical talent more so. Not surprisingly, well-known climbers
who had made their reputations on the basis of boldness as well as physical skill were among the most vociferous opponents of the practices. "
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"That's it heavy hitting dudes.
When's the baseball game start?
Trad vs. rap
And you're batting average is?"
before or after steroids? Only the rap brothers get to dose....
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Shingle
climber
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"The boundaries first constructed around the new practices reflected elite climbers' concerns and were designed in large part to negate the threat they posed to the competitive status quo. Two different: kinds of boundaries were created: the first downgraded ascents using the new practices by ranking
them along a hierarchical continuum of style, and the second disqualified them by segregating them as a different "kind" of climb. Climbers had long used the term "ethics" more or less interchangeably with "style," ranking the value of an ascent partly in terms of how it was accomplished. While some techniques were beyond the pale, most existed along a spectrum of better and worse? not good or bad per se, and a number of different factors could be used to evaluate an ascent's purity. In labeling climbs in which these practices were used as "unethical," those disturbed by such ascents drew upon this tradition. While this downgraded the ascents, the fact that ethics was generally viewed in terms of a spectrum meant that it did not necessarily disqualify them altogether. Indeed, the diversity of stylistic flaws recognized by climbers helped preclude the construction of a clear and rigid divide between the acceptable and unacceptable. Climbers agreed that the more flaws, the worse the ascent, but they bickered about the relative seriousness of different violations; thus, any line between "bad style" and "cheating" was necessarily fuzzy and somewhat idiosyncratic. Those who discussed the new practices in the context of a purity scale disapproved of the apparent sacrifice of style for glory. They did not, however, generally call for a total eradication of the practices.
The second boundary strategy, calling the practices "aid," was more overtly exclusive. Conventionally, the distinction between aid and free climbing is important... Those calling the new practices "aid" argued that because hangdogging and rap-bolting involved hanging on the rope, the free-climbing maxim that gear be used only for protection was violated. In other ways, the techniques were closer to free climbing. Despite prior practice, climbers did not credit the ascent until it was accomplished without falls and without using the gear for anything but protection. But the division between aid and free operated according to a kind of "one-drop rule." Just as Americans have traditionally considered any African ancestry to be sufficient cause to classify a person as black (Davis, 1991), so too does any use of aid render the climb aid. Nonetheless, because aid climbing remained a legitimate specialty, calling the practices "aid" did not mark them as heretical per se. They remained within the fold of climbing proper, albeit relegated to a less prestigious stratum.
Both classifying the practices as "aid" and ranking them lower on a hierarchical scale removed the competitive advantage they conferred. A necessary corollary was that one know which ascents involved hangdogging and/or rap-bolting, and which did not. Accordingly, calls for greater openness and detail about the style of an ascent were common. Such openness was asymmetrical: more detail about climbs accomplished in "acceptable" style was unnecessary. These were the generic norm against which the deviations were "marked" (see Brekhus, 1996, for a sociological discussion of marking). This mark was clearly negative: it was assumed that few would respect ascents accomplished in "bad" style. This was not an unreasonable assumption."
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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When I played centerfield for the Yosemite Lions, the spray from the Falls would soak me.
BITD and sh#t....
Yet another useless post in an increasingly useless thread.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Oh yeah? Well, I played left field, and left out for Clark's Nutcrackers for the last two years so there!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Bob,
You wrote, "Fat wrote: Somehow, I think LongAgo has once again supported the no rap bolt position.
By using a country that suppressed any type of human independence...funny!"
And Bob found another irony in "Fehrmann had a strong personal climbing style and is admired for it . .even through he was a terrible human being...Sean and Doug are kind human beings, have contributed greatly to climbing, their friends and families and are being judge by a supposed taint of a climbing style...WTF!"
I actually intended the post as a diversion from the debate itself, as I said in the lead off to my post. I thought it was rather amazing and humorous how the bolts were placed in light of the entire discussion. Here we are pounding around ground up versus top down means of placing bolts with hammers a given when, way back when, there were some folks not using hammers at all! Wow. Kinda a nice swat in the head no matter what camp we stand in, no?
klk,
Thanks for your knowledgeable discussion of the historical context. It's always sobering and humbling to be reminded our style debate, seemingly so hot and current, is ancient, never mind common to struggles between factions in any human endeavors and organizations, if we can believe (and understand) the sociological paradigm Shingle brings to our attention.
Of course what's telling, again, in the recent posts is how difficult it is to get away from a value laden approach to the style debate. Adherents to one style are held up, others torn down, one experience held superior to another, one associated with good human beings, others bad or politically suspect or whatever. I've repeatedly tried to move the debate from that square to another, as per my tome way back when on the thread: forget the inherent merits or demerits of the styles in question and ask, "How can their adherents agree to practice their preferred styles in the same area at the same time without tearing at one another's throats? What agreements between the two camps would get us there? How might those agreements come to fruition?"
I've see few glimmers on the thread in that direction. Well, maybe next time.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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"Clark's Nutcrackers"
Is that that weird old guy at the bottom of the hill in old el portal that always wanted to show me his "basement" when I was 10?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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I have a great idea. Why don't you all shut the f*#k up. Enough already. This thread crossed the boarder of pathetic along time ago.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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No, seriously, why don't you tell us how you really feel?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Well, to tell the truth, I'm very shy. That comment must have come from my alter ego.
Bad monkey....
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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3000 we have to get there... after that .... who knows.. this may go on forever...
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tom...I love your writing and the way you express yourself. Times changes and so do people...hope you are doing well and life is good.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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May 10, 2008 - 10:16pm PT
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Bob,
Thanks for the note. I've enjoyed your probing posts, causing head scratching on this end. Nothing like a good trad/sport debate to keep the neurons flying.
I see another one brewing on another thread, maybe a bit more than this one on the subject of agreements, coexistence, even the dreaded committee or organization of climbers to find some practical compromises, area by area. That's the most productive direction for the debate, me thinks, as you know. I'll stay tuned.
Thanks for the well wishes. Life's pretty good here at the moment with bod holding up, good fam, OK work, fun cycling and some crags in the picture. No big regrets, at least so far.
Cheers,
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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May 10, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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Upon further reflection about the SFHD and Growing Up, I realize
that I am full of s**t, and am unqualified to comment or criticize.
Let me try to explain one aspect of my feelings.
I would feel qualified if I climb hard, climb a lot, have never
sport climbed and never clipped a bolt. The truth is, I have
clipped other people's bolts, I have even clipped other people's
bolt ladders and rivet ladders. On a wall, it is so reassuring to
reach a nice, bomber bolted belay (instead of having to equalize
trad gear and then hang the ledge and bags off it). For me, it is
more fulfilling to climb a route without bolts, especially at
belays, where the possibility of bailing via rappel is harder.
But the truth is, I have clipped bolts, so can I criticize?
Perhaps others on this forum are more qualified, with years of
hard and honest climbing under their belts. But I wonder how
many high profile, traditional climbers exist, who have made a
lot of first ascents and never placed a bolt. I seriously doubt
that there are too many.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 11, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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Tom...glad to hear you are doing better.
I'm not going to lose an old friend over some bolts or the chance to gain a new one...life is way too short.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 03:01am PT
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DixieGal, I think you are mistaking what exactly Trad is to most. Many trad routes have bolts. A gear only route is often easier to pro than a trad slab route where the legitimate places to get protection are slim and none and the only way to avoid death is to place a bolt. So, having climbed for a long time, generally speaking most of the hardest climbs I have done, both physically and mentally, had bolts on them. Just not very damn many.
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