Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
Ward said
"The problem encountered with meditation in this regard has to do with the inevitable invocation of faith---much like the default position encountered in faith-based religious life or spirituality in general. The problem of unravelling an inner conundrum or apparent mystery without the capacity to compare and generalize is a difficult and perhaps insurmountable one .
If the meditator encounters what he/she considers some nugget of experiential truth about the inner experience ---how can it be ascertained that the subjective perception of this truth is not an illusion?Science itself ,operating in the objective world overflowing with verifiable comparisons and reliable precedent often gets things wrong---so how can a meditator know that they are wrong about something encountered in the specialized brain state of meditation?
Faith?"
This perspective on Buddhist style meditation (zen and theravadan) is common for non-meditators and meditators without teachers. This whole idea that you are trying to attain some altered or unusually heightened state. The buddha said you are already enlightened you just don't know it. What he was pointing to is we have the capacity to be selfless loving beings, peaceful; but we have a tendency to lead selfish lives always trying to manipulate things our way at the expense of others. All meditation is intended to do is let you observe your self oriented way clearly and then let it go.
All this talk about special states is just another self oriented trap to to let let go of.
Jgill: your right it is tricky to tell if a person has let go of self oriented ways but then again it can also be pretty easy to tell by just hanging around them. In Zen there are Koans (questions ) that typically can't be answered correctly if you are self oriented you usually have to pierce through some sort of rigid (conditioned)thinking to get the answer. As you practice more the mental conditioning softens and the perspective widens.
But we are human and mistakes will always happen and a big part of the practice is to acknowledge your mistakes and make them correct.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
|
The problem encountered with meditation in this regard has to do with the inevitable invocation of faith---much like the default position encountered in faith-based religious life or spirituality in general. The problem of unravelling an inner conundrum or apparent mystery without the capacity to compare and generalize is a difficult and perhaps insurmountable one .
If the meditator encounters what he/she considers some nugget of experiential truth about the inner experience ---how can it be ascertained that the subjective perception of this truth is not an illusion?Science itself ,operating in the objective world overflowing with verifiable comparisons and reliable precedent often gets things wrong---so how can a meditator know that they are wrong about something encountered in the specialized brain state of meditation?
Faith?
Nope. Faith has nothing to do with it, and the idea that meditation is out to cop "experiential nuggets of truth" is inaccurate, and merely makes meditation another discursive way to learn about this or that, but doing so without instruments, it is really doing science, but doing it poorly and without peer review.
None of this is accurate, as PPS pointed. As he said, this is a persistant misperception of those who don't practice and especially those never exposed to a teacher.
JL
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
Think what you are saying here Jan. In order to address the possibility of specific moral violations by scientists, not covered by existing law, you are suggesting a politically correct council of elders in the form of a "code" --- somehow miraculously wise and neutral enough not to contain demonstrable traces of religion or culture.
Sometimes I wonder if we even speak the same language or grew up in the same culture at all? Where did I ever say I thought a wise council of elders ought to "address the possibility of specific moral violations by scientists?". I didn't even mention science in those comments. In fact, I assumed a new set of ethics would involve scientists. Who else could contribute better to a new set of ethics for humans in their relationship to the natural world, for example?
I really dispair if our society is so hopelessly divided that even rational people are so paranoid they assume the worst about everyone who has a somewhat different opinion from them. It seems to me it isn't just the religious fundamentalists in our country who are focussed on some sort of Armageddon.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
I really dispair if our society is so hopelessly divided that even rational people are so
paranoid they assume the worst about everyone who has a somewhat different opinion from
them. It seems to me it isn't just the religious fundamentalists in our country who are focussed on
some sort of Armageddon.
Jan:
You have pretty well located why we are headed for bad things. Let's get specific.
We imagine "The Free Market" has no regulation. In 2008 our financial
system collapsed because so much worthless paper had been issued by our insufficiently
regulated banks. Liar's loans, remember? Banking profits trumped all other considerations.
Our culture has largely lost touch with the idea that a culture exists only when its members
understand what the "general good" is and are willing to work toward it.
We have people who want guns to be readily available. Without seeing any connection to the
slaughter of six year olds. No one is willing to sacrifice what they want, even when that sacrifice
benefits the whole.
Too many are looking for the advantage that can be used to benefit themselves.
Representative democracy assumes people will work toward the "general good".
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
All meditation is intended to do is let you observe your self oriented way clearly and then let it go.
Okay , first things first here.
PP:
Escaping continual self-observation seems an underappreciated pleasure. Roy Baumeister wrote an entire book devoted to the premise that self-awareness is frequently a burden. Across cultures, we blunt awareness with alcohol, drugs, auto-hypnotic rituals and when times are dire, suicide. Meditation offers relief from this self-preoccupation and one of the few tools for creating a durable boost in happiness—perhaps by dampening activity in regions implicated in judgment, comparison, planning and self-scrutiny. Left prefrontal cortex activation correlates with happiness and Tibetan Buddhist monks have created the greatest measured spike in activity in this region produced by simple thought when meditating on compassion.
Furthermore:
meditation also corresponds to activity in the brain’s pleasure centers, such as left forebrain bundle, anterior insula and precentral gyrus. This overt pleasure is accompanied by a shift in emotional self-regulation; meditators are more aware of thoughts and feelings conceptually, but less emotionally disrupted by them...
This is what I referred to when I averred that meditation amounted to "special states". Meditation is not a garden-variety level of consciousness. It is special, and must be recognized as such. There are demonstrable specialized brain states which are observationally verifiable with various categories of observation as regards meditation.
So your comment:
All this talk about special states is just another self oriented trap to to let let go of.
Is illogical --- as Spock would say.
-------------------------------------------------/----------
and the idea that meditation is out to cop "experiential nuggets of truth" is inaccurate,
Well , what in the hell drew you to this thing in the first place, cheap thrills?
If the search for truth is strictly a "discursive" endeavor then what are you involved with?
Getting some kind of exotic buzz?
An exotic buzz ultimately meaning very little to your fellow humans, other than that it lights up certain brain localities with a pleasure response?
--------------------------------------------------------/-------------------
Jan,
Where did I ever say I thought a wise council of elders ought to "address the possibility of specific moral violations by scientists?". I didn't even mention science in those comments. In fact, I assumed a new set of ethics would involve scientists. Who else could contribute better to a new set of ethics for humans in their relationship to the natural world, for example.
The "wise council of elders" was clearly meant as a type of imaginative flourish designed as a sort of floral illumination of the point I was making. It was not meant to paraphrase a more or less literal reenactment of your prior comments.
You didn't mention Science openly in this connection but what exactly were you referring to ?
It was clear that science is what you were talking about.
-------------------------------------
JStan:
We all trust in "The Free Market". A really free market has no regulation. In 2008 our financial
system collapsed because so much worthless paper had been issued by our insufficiently
regulated banks. Liar's loans, remember? Banking profits trumped all other considerations.
Apparently the operations of a "free market" is fine and dandy---only if one is willing to remove "free" and replace it with an enlightened socialistic control by a fraternity of an older cohort of fading 60s baby boomer do-gooders reared on weedy anti-capitalist sentiments and the counter-cultural era it experienced.
Does anyone believe that a society and economy presided over by the weltanshuung of aging counterculture hippies can economically compete with the rest of the world?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
Ward proves my point.
Apparently the operations of a "free market" is fine and dandy---only if you remove "free"
and replace it with an enlightened socialistic control by a fraternity of an older cohort of baby
boomer do-gooders reared on weedy anti-capitalist sentiments and brainwashing.
Does anyone believe that a society and economy presided over by a bunch of aging hippies can
economically compete with the rest of the world. Seriously
He shows no willingness to follow the fathers of our country who hoped, and it was a hope, that
democracy offered a way to answer questions. It was a great gamble by the way not supported by
events on the continent. But Jefferson argued that given educated voters, it would be possible.
It has been possible, to a substantial extent, for two centuries. Now it may well not be possible. You
have only to look at Congress' very unusual behavior to see something has changed.
Us.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
"an older cohort of fading 60s baby boomer do-gooders reared on weedy anti-capitalist sentiments and brainwashing"
jstan a dope smoking hippie ?!!!
Bwahahahahahahahahah !
Good one.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
It has been possible, to a substantial extent, for two centuries. Now it may well not be possible. You
have only to look at Congress' very unusual behavior to see something has changed.
Yes . And electing and then reelecting a President who exhibits a demonstrable narcissistically-based antipathy towards the traditionalist attitudes and national modus operandi (you may have hinted at when you mentioned "democracy")---including capitalism in particular and self -determination and self-reliance in general.
The overall relativistic moral climate engendered by pop liberalism, and other causes, has resulted in a business , corporate , and governmental environment which has attracted a temporary over-abundance of high-functioning psychopaths in recent decades. Many of our collective problems are traceable to this very thing---- not the historically vindicated operating principles of free market economics; nor the fashionable, politically motivated hallucination contending that free markets are not being adequately regulated by eye-shade, bean-counting, inherently incompetent governmental apparatchiks.
What is amazing to me is the absolute degree to which the current liberal/media/ political intelligentsia is willing to confine their numb recognition of this on-going pathocracy to the private sector only ; despite the historical record , especially in Europe over the last century---and despite the current situation in this country. It has convinced me this intelligentsia is part of the problem and not the solution-- having thrown in their lot with the government elites and the political class.In fact they are the political class.
It is yet more evidence of the robust totality of generationally faddish socialistic propaganda held over from the mid-20th century-- with the horrible result that more and more of people's lives have been ceded over to big government.This has continued to surprise and distress me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponerology
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
jstan a dope smoking hippie ?!!!
That's not what I meant by "weedy"
I do not know JStan personally and therefore would never characterize him in such a way.
Nor was my comment that included "weedy" intended as a specific , personal characterization.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
ward trotter, is there a basic issue you would like to address? I'm interested to hear it, but can you condense it and leave out everybody else?
I don't understand what you are getting at here?
What you see is what you get.
Ask a specific question about a specific subject and I'll try my best to answer it.
|
|
Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
|
|
'Specific'
To wax more prolific,
One must be terrific,
Respect those honorific,
And those unspecific,
Write less hieroglyphic,
And be more scientific,
For the open Pacific,
Might be calm or horrific.
-bushman
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
Daydreaming... and... Science...
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2014 - 09:33am PT
|
This is what I referred to when I averred that meditation amounted to "special states". Meditation is not a garden-variety level of consciousness. It is special, and must be recognized as such. There are demonstrable specialized brain states which are observationally verifiable with various categories of observation as regards meditation.
What makes you difficult to follow and always to seemingly be a step of the pace is that you start out with false assumptions. What you have described above is a rundown of objective functioning, which you think "produces" or "proves" different subjective states. The problem is that the very same EEG, for instance, will not produce the same subjective condition in any two people. There was a big push to try and replicate the brain waves old Tibetan masters, to entrain those states in people via modern neurofeedback protocols. Problem is, when you tried to do so, and generated that much low frequency (mainly Delta), people started having seizures. A much better or useful approach is to try and manipulate the subjective and to change the objective, which is what modern biofeedback is all about .
In short, measuring brain states can often mean some very general things about subjective states, especially pathology (bursts of certain frequencies are almost certainly the signature of seizure syndrome, for example), but in a consciousnss devoid of pathology, objective states vary a lot person to person.
JL
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
Now as I was young and easy under the apple boughs
About the lilting house and happy as the grass was green,
The night above the dingle starry,
Time let me hail and climb
Golden in the heydays of his eyes,
And honoured among wagons I was prince of the apple towns
And once below a time I lordly had the trees and leaves
Trail with daisies and barley
Down the rivers of the windfall light.
And as I was green and carefree, famous among the barns
About the happy yard and singing as the farm was home,
In the sun that is young once only,
Time let me play and be
Golden in the mercy of his means,
And green and golden I was huntsman and herdsman, the calves
Sang to my horn, the foxes on the hills barked clear and cold,
And the sabbath rang slowly
In the pebbles of the holy streams.
All the sun long it was running, it was lovely, the hay
Fields high as the house, the tunes from the chimneys, it was air
And playing, lovely and watery
And fire green as grass.
And nightly under the simple stars
As I rode to sleep the owls were bearing the farm away,
All the moon long I heard, blessed among stables, the nightjars
Flying with the ricks, and the horses
Flashing into the dark.
And then to awake, and the farm, like a wanderer white
With the dew, come back, the c*#k on his shoulder: it was all
Shining, it was Adam and maiden,
The sky gathered again
And the sun grew round that very day.
So it must have been after the birth of the simple light
In the first, spinning place, the spellbound horses walking warm
Out of the whinnying green stable
On to the fields of praise.
And honoured among foxes and pheasants by the gay house
Under the new made clouds and happy as the heart was long,
In the sun born over and over,
I ran my heedless ways,
My wishes raced through the house high hay
And nothing I cared, at my sky blue trades, that time allows
In all his tuneful turning so few and such morning songs
Before the children green and golden
Follow him out of grace,
Nothing I cared, in the lamb white days, that time would take me
Up to the swallow thronged loft by the shadow of my hand,
In the moon that is always rising,
Nor that riding to sleep
I should hear him fly with the high fields
And wake to the farm forever fled from the childless land.
Oh as I was young and easy in the mercy of his means,
Time held me green and dying
Though I sang in my chains like the sea.
Fern Hill
Dylan Thomas
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
Bushman that was a mighty proud post!
Thank You for devulging and being so honest.
your story has many similarities to mine, and others here.
this part hit home;
There is no scientific evidence that we even have souls, let alone that one would be eternal. I had the good fortune to live twelve years of life with a golden retriever of such loyalty and devotion that I have often considered him to be of more value to society than many of our members of congress.
Throughout the 90,s and into the 2000's i disconnected from society and moved into a van down by a rock. i figured out how to work for three months Framing, and live in the Valley for nine. then in 02' i adopted a dog,Jake. He was the smartest, most dedicated, loyal companion i ever met! i say smartest because he knew over 25 people by their name, and he could tell just by my actions and tones what was happening next.i could go on all day about that dog. Before i got him, i was an island in the world. Sure i had family and friends that were great during the good times. But during hard times they want to hold you at arms length. Seems there is always stipulations with man-made love. But not with Jake. He took my best and worst without ever dropping his respect, admiration, and love for me..
Somehow this brought me an awareness of how a relationship could be. In brief, i took an about-face and started walking in a direction of being dedicated and responsible to him. Something i had never been for another being. dont get me wrong, i always took great care for him. i spent $3400. on a surgery, and i,d feed him even when i had no food. But i had a change in perception of what my motivation in life was. It was no longer just about me. i lived for him. i did everything i could to try and provide a stable future for him. In the mists of this my life hit another speedbump. i felt my stableness cracking. Thats when i overheard a radio show with Greg Laurie. His words rang true. This caused me to open my bible again after 20 yrs. i read and pondered and visited churches, and listened to many a ministers. i agreed and liked a little bit of something each were teaching, but most came with the guilt ridden, if you do this, this will happen. i screamed and yelled at Jesus, calling Him a vengeful son of a bitch! and asked Him why? and why was His teachers teaching through guilt?
....Well, He answered. it would take a few pages to describe, but in short, His spirit took me to the floor sobbing and relinquishing all my guilt. This spirit stayed with me, and over the next eleven days (the time it took me to read through the entire bible none stop), He had given me a spiritual understanding of the entire book. With a few highlighted passages. Jesus came to do away with the condemnation of the Law. His dearth and resurrection wiped away ALL bad deeds and ALL guilt along with it. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO, underline DO, that can bring God closer or push Him away. (except deni Him ofcourse). He is always there with you.
If Abraham was justified by works, hed have something to boast about, but not before God. Abraham BELIEVED God, thats whats righteous. didnt matter what he did. Jesus said, He came to fulfill the Law, and whoever breaks the law AND TEACHES MEN SO shall be called least in Heaven. Breaking the Law is forgiven, but if you are teaching others wrong you are not of the spirit. And Jesus didnt ask the WHore in the street about what she did. He asked her if there was anyone that condemns her. Mat.7:12, therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is The Law and The Prophets. Jesus also said,"The son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, look a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is justified by her children"
Bad deeds and guilt are only in the eye of the beholder. Jesus already forgave EVERYTHING YOU'LL EVER DO!! Dont allow them to keep your mind from scripture. Read the Bible and let your spirit be lesson-ed..
Amen
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
Where's old MikeL? It's been over a month.
Mike's posts had a charm and dimension unmatched on this thread. Hope he returns.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
What you have described above is a rundown of objective functioning, which you think "produces" or "proves" different subjective states.
No I don't think that at all. I was merely reiterating what I know to be common knowledge out there, namely, that specific subjective states have correlates in observable brain function.
Let's take meditation for example. Functional MRI revealed:
A significant increase in signals was observed in the dorsolateral prefrontal and parietal cortices, hippocampus, temporal lobe, anterior cingulate, striatum, and pre- and postcentral gyri during meditation. http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2006/740623.pdf
The problem is that the very same EEG, for instance, will not produce the same subjective condition in any two people (largo).
Yes but why do the same general readings in MRI, PET, MEG, and other observed markers, correlate to meditation states across several people---as in the eight Buddhist monks cited below?
The results indicate that the practice of meditation activates neural structures involved in attention and control of the autonomic nervous system. Newberg and Iversen[74] described two types of meditation: “The first type is one in which the subjects simply attempt to clear all thought from their sphere of attention and to reach a subjective state, characterized by a sense of no space, no time, and no thought. This state is also fully integrated and unified, such that there is no sense of a self and other. The second form of meditation involves focusing attention on a particular object, image, word, or phrase, which may lead to a subjective experience of absorption with the object of focus. In eight Tibetan Buddhist monks, voluntary meditation with sustained attention was initially accompanied by activation in bilateral, but right more than left, prefrontal cortex and cingulate gyrus. This was followed by activation of the inhibitory reticular nucleus of the thalamus, which in turn deaffarented the posterior temporo-parieto-occipital areas, minimizing the (cortical) sensory input. The perception of one’s bodily self depends on the activation of posterior, superior parietal lobules. The hippocampus acts to modulate cortical arousal and responsiveness via connections with the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, and hypothalamus. These structures are involved in generating attention, emotion, and imagery.” http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2006/740623.pdf
It isn't my intent to suggest that these measurements fully explain the meditative states, but they do correlate.
Why these particular correlations and not others evidenced in the brain during meditation?
Activation of right amygdala results in stimulation of the hypothalamus, with subsequent stimulation of the parasympathetic system. This is associated with a sense of relaxation and profound quiescence, reducing breathing and heart rates, which in turn, reduces the activity of locus ceruleus. Decreased NE from locus ceruleus would decrease the stimulation of hypothalamus, thus, decreasing the stress-related production of CRH, ACTH, and cortisol... Argenine vasopressin (AVP) is known to be released during meditation and has been shown to contribute to the maintenance of positive affect, to decrease self- perceived fatigue and arousal, and to significantly improve the consolidation of new memories and learning. The activation of prefrontal cortex increases the levels of free glutamate in the brain, which can stimulate the hypothalamus to release beta-endorphin. Beta-endorphin is known to reduce pain and fear, and to produce a sense of joy and euphoria. Moderately increased levels of serotonin, during meditation, also appear to correlate with positive affect.” http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2006/740623.pdf
I like the " ...significantly improve the consolidation of new memories and learning"
Also the Arginine ( AVP) referred to in the above is responsible as a source of Nitric Oxide which helps to relax and dilate blood vessels and aids the immune system in combatting infections.
Nitric Oxide is viewed as having neurotransmitter status in the brain and is thought to be involved with learning and memory formation.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!