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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Weschrist,
Selective reading on your part.
"800 million[5] to 6.5 billion; note, however, that of the 6.5 billion copies printed and shipped, maybe only a third were actually bought, and the rest are on stock in stores or factories worldwide[6]"
Yes, I can see the Chinese government doing this in attempt to make the numbers the Bible does all on its own without trying.
And I'm not a fundamentalist. I upset Christians and Scientists alike.
BC,
Just the fact that God's plan of getting the word out is working. We don't really have an excuse do we? Heck, you could even take a Gideon's Bible from the hotel/motel room for free if you like ;-))
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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And now for the scientists and philosophers-
I came across an interesting video that should interest both groups while checking out Largo's references to Ken Wilbur. Some of you may have seen it already as it is part of a PBS series on evolution. The title of the 5th in the series is called The Mind's Big Bang.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7000929389205786708&ei=0cvKSuaUNYqUwgOE8PTQCA&q=big+mind&hl=en#
It deals with the mental revolution occurring in early Homo sapiens, probably related to language. Worth watching for the facts, but also because it provokes a lot of interesting questions about cognition, consciousness, and intelligence. Interestingly enough, the 6th and last video which I haven't seen, is entitled "God".
One thing I have observed by living with premodern or recently modern people though, is that they have mental faculties which we have lost. Therefore I am a little uncomfortable with the presumption in a video like this that we always make progress. For example, people living in a pre- electronic situation have much keener senses than we do - they see, hear, and smell more acutely. Illiterate people also have much better memories in my experience, and certainly better auditory memory. They also have better intuition and a keener sense of social nuance as well.
Of course one can say that such faculties no longer serve us because of our superior technology and greater numbers crowded together, and therefore losing them is a positive adaptation. Anthropologists have also been accused of trading in nostalgia for an irretrievable past. Still, I think we've lost something along the way.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Weschrist,
I can see this is a sore spot with you. You really can't count the number of Bibles since there were very few in existance until Martin Luther and the invention of the Gutenberg Press about 1440 AD. I'll let you do the math.
Oh, and AD . . . 'AD actually stands for the Latin phrase "anno domini" which means "in the year of our Lord."'
I know probably another sore subject with you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Look at Wes,,,,,quoting jesus again. hehehe.
This all makes my head spin. My take. If it works, it works and "just jesus" has worked for me Big Time for the past many years....through literal hell and high water. Nothing else had.
I gave many different philo's a whirl. Didn't even believe in God for awhile. For the short time I was in college I did quite well in philosophy and study of religions. My prof's loved me .... my parents hated me when all 9 of us gathered round the dinner table and I told them about Kant and Eastern religion and the problems with Judeo Christian thought.....it was pretty funny actually.:D Peace, lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Lynne-
I have the greatest respect for someone who happens to settle on their own tradition AFTER exploring the others. You did it with an open mind. No where in the Bible does it say that God or Jesus prefers close minded followers.Of course, one of the great principles in eastern religions anyway, is remaining true to your original root guru - which seems to me what you have done.
Also as I've mentioned before, you show us how it works in your personal life not just in theory but through what you give to the community. That's a whole lot different than just dumping a lot of quotes on us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer and Weschrist-
These numbers are meaningless. How many of those Bibles and Little Red Books never got read but were purchased for public consumption - the coffee table or to put on the night stand when grandma visited or displayed during the Cultural Revolution in the hope it would help one stay out of a re-education camp?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Yes, the numbers game is just that. However, it does have a seed of truth to it.
One of my favorite classes in college was World Religions. The instructor was a Buddist/Catholic Monk with a Masters degree. He left to teach college. He was really good. He had a passion for faiths of all kinds. That was a very interesting class with lots of debate among the students and the instructor. Lots of passion but in a good spirit. It was also one of the hardest classes. Lots of writing and the tests were brutal. I can remember him describing much of his own experience as "Smells and Bells."
Weschrist,
Huh?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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OK Klimmer-
I'll bite. How on earth did you get from enjoying a class in comparative religion to your current position? Did you run into a fundamentalist girlfriend on the way? Have a huge trauma in your life that sent you looking for stability?
Meanwhile, a concept that has helped me a lot is the idea that we do better with a spiritual style that suits our personality, the choices being intellect (both theology and science), love and devotion (ranging from liturgy to charismatic), selfless service (endless possibilities including Face Lift), or intuition and mysticism ( contemplative prayer and meditation or charismatic).
The fully enlightened human would be the one who had them all balanced. Sometimes we seek balance by marrying someone who shores up our weaknesses, sometimes we do it on our own, often unskillfully. Intellect and service are left brain activities, emotion and intuition are right brain activities. At least we can hope to do well from one of each. Otherwise our spirituality and personal life are really unbalanced.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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In other words--equipoise or drug of choice . . .
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jan,
I grew up in a Christian family. Even in my family we all do not see eye to eye on theological matters to this day.
In the Army, and then college, I left my first love with God. Once saved does not mean always saved. That is a fallacy. Your name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. I definately was The Prodigal Son for many years. After getting married, having children and then experiencing how bad it has been politically since 9-11-2001 (a major downer), and knowing I have a responsibility as a husband and father to raise my family in faith, belief, and the love of God (I will be held to account), I asked God if I could come back to his love and would he forgive me for leaving him? He has. God is merciful and true.
If one was to read all my posts here at ST (boring I know) it could be determined when I came back to God. There is always a serious positive change for the better.
Also, the only thing I can thank GWB and the Neocons for, is driving me running back to God, they are that incredibly evil. My peace of mind has returned. No matter what, it will all be OK. I still have to pay attention to what is happening around me in the world, but in the end it will all be OK. I just got to hold onto God's hand and never let go again (figuratively speaking).
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Klimmer, you are on my heart tonight. Peace, lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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It's pretty facinating how these god vs. no god or what god, evolution, creation, what made this place, what makes it work, what makes us work as humans individually, what makes us work together....or not...it's facinating how many posts these threads get.
Must be important to at least a few. Smiles and Peace tonight...lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer-
Thanks for sharing your journey. I think if we do it right, it is always a journey.
Children though, change the picture a lot. I think your real fun will start when your kids get old enough to rebel in their turn against their background! I had no real religious background and used to resent that I had nothing solid along those lines to rebel against. There's always something for a teenager to resent!
It will be interesting to see how our journeys unfold over the years. Often times when we feel most comfortable and stable is just when the rug is about to be pulled out and we make our greatest leaps forward.
Peace.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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JL, at this point it is semantics. In the English language "awareness" is a noun and "aware" is an adjective that modifies a noun. The modifier cannot simultaneously be that which is modified... just as a force cannot act on itself. But I think understand what you are trying to say and in the past I have experienced brief moments of awareness as "no-thing" which gives rise to and somehow is everything simultaneously. If you haven't read any Alan Watts, I recommend it. He tackles the paradoxes that arise from the English language quite well, I think.
You're starting to get warm there Westcrist, but still no cigar.
Of course what I've driving at has nothing whatsoever to do with language, and thinking that linguistic constructs - which I deal with all day every day - somehow determines the nature of awareness, is to approach the issue bass-akwards. I'm not talking about an Alan Watts concept, nor yet any kind of construct at all. "You" can't experience awareness as "no-thing."
"No-thing" IS the direct experience of awareness, before any content ("you" etc...) enters the infinite field.
But I'm tired and need sleep . . .
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Formerly known as . . . ,
I agree with you to a point.
But when reality starts ticking off one prophecy after another from the good book in these last days and things line up and happen just as the good book says it will, then faith meets the evidence of reality and we will all know. The stage is set right now. No one dissagrees with this that knows the Bible well and what it says concerning the last days. The stage is set like it never has been before in all of history. Jesus told us to watch, be prepared, and to be ready.
Some of us are choosing which side of the fence we want to be on now, before that happens. We are not promised tomorrow. I choose to be with God.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Lynne said;
"I gave many different philo's a whirl".
Wow, sorry I missed that. Or was it from that lost month in Vegas? he he.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Klimmer said After getting married, having children and then experiencing how bad it has been politically since 9-11-2001 (a major downer), and knowing I have a responsibility as a husband and father to raise my family in faith, belief, and the love of God...
On the contrary, I feel strongly that parents do their kids a disservice in indoctrinating them with religion before they can think for themselves. The chance that you would believe in Christianity if you were born in just about any Muslim country is vanishingly small. You would, instead, likely feel just as strongly about Islam.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Klimmer--Puuulease. Are you a big fan of the Left Behind series? This is such a big load of hogwash. Many times in the past, dimmed-brained people have gathered on some hilltop waiting for THE END. Do you bathe your children in this fear, too? End times! End times! Give it a rest. Climb a route, drink a beer. Ah, there's God for you. The All-knowing, All-seeing, All-blessing Suds!
BAd
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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It deals with the mental revolution occurring in early Homo sapiens, probably related to language.
Jan, did you ever read a discussion of this by Julian Jaynes in his book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind?" It was published in the late 70s and is probably hard to find now, but he had some very interesting ideas. He also dealt with theism, en passant.
David
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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eeyonkee,
As the good book says (paraphrasing), "teach them the ways of the Lord and when they are old they will not depart from them." Many places in the good book talk about our responsibility as parents to our children and to teach them the ways of the Lord. They can always make decisions on their own when they are on their own. They have free-will just like I did. I left. But then I came back. I then knew what to come back to. If I didn't have this upbringing I would still be lost perhaps.
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