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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Mark and Richard - STFU!
STEVE GROSSMAN - YOU PATHETIC WANKER! You have NO F*#KIN' IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
Grossman - Please. PLEASE. PLEASE!
Shut the f*#k up. You are an idiot. You have no f*#king clue what you are talking about. Come to Facelift and kiss my middle aged lard-assed ass! Get your f*#kin' aiders and hooks out, and go climb the route. You make me f*#kin' puke! You are pathetic piece of sh#t.
So there. Bite me. I'll be around tomorrow night. We'll drink beer and talk about it.
Mark and Richard, STFU.
Sheesh.
Russ - cool beans on the ledge! Mucho appreciado! 400 nights here I come.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Someone just emailed me saying; 1000 bucks is not worth the trip to the ER.
Oh, sh#t it’s all good fun. No?
Pete, go to sleep you got work to do. Sh#t,
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:21am PT
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Holy frig! I think I was around 3 or 4 2-4's of beer when I tried, and it wasn't enough to get me to climb that sick route. I saw the grand, and the $250, but I think I missed the other $250.
Are we at $1250 or $1500? Too rad! Send it!
Did I mention Steve Grossman is a TOTAL DICKHEAD? Bite me, Steve.
Dog - was at the Facelift, ok? You pay $20 for a glass, you get to refill it as many times as you like. Me and buddy split the glass, 11 fills tonight. So I'm under two bucks a drink, get it? The above posts come with the enclosed caveat.
[buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurp]
But Steve's still a dickhead.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:22am PT
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Joseph, you just ain't getting it. Maybe in some other thread, some other time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:29am PT
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"micro-enhance" (wtf is that anyway?)
WTF "micro-enhance" has been detailed ad nauseum - it's the sideways removal of a sub-1mm crystal from an existing horizontal micro-ledge resulting in about a pea gravel stone accumulation of crystals over nine pitches.
Some here must be scale-challenged in that mountain-out-of-a-molehill sort of way. The indignation of ethical, if not near-philosophical, purity on display that has turned that micro-crystal removal into "drilling" has been almost as amusing as hearing about the various circumstances under which it's o.k. to remove varying macro-volumes of stone from routes. Well, I take that back, that does take a back seat to the all the long-running non-WoS arguments on which of a variety of chunks of metal are valid to fill a hole with.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:30am PT
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Hopefully this won't ignite another bout of all-caps rebuttals, but we're touching on one of the foundations of the strict wall ethic that we all lived by in the 80's.
For example, any time a drill was used, the ethic demanded that the hole should to be filled with a solid machine head rivet that could actually take short falls.
The core of our ethic was that we believed that it was our responsibility to create a good climb that could be repeated without artificial horror.
That's also why trenching heads was verbotten. The cable of a fixed trenched head in a corner quickly get trashed, leaving only the option to clip the fixed head with only a few strands of cable left, or to trench again.
When Slater climbed a section on the Sheep Ranch by hammering z-macs with 1/2" tieoffs flush to the wall, he got a lot of grief, because subsequent ascents had a choice to either: 1. spend 20 minutes cleaning out the rotten tie-off only to be able to use a slightly better 1/16" cable tie-off, or 2: clip the rotten sling, now making what was once A3 (with the full-strength 1/2" tie-off that would have held a short fall) into solid A4 (with the now rotten barely body-weight 1/2" tie-off).
Any one of us had plenty of opportunities to create desperately hard A5+ routes for subsequent climbers, full of hidden and clever tricks that only we knew about because we created them. But with the ethic we had in mind, it was actually quite hard to find anything harder than A4+.
I'm not making the claim that that applies to this route, because to comment on this particular aspect, one would need to have some direct experience with a particular climb, but it might help shed some light on what Russ is correctly talking about in that some second ascents can be harder than the first.
But you can be damn sure that a route put up by Cole, Grossman, or Shipley will have no such tricks, and the second ascent will always be much easier because the drilled anchors will all be bomber.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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[
I got your enhancement you all. 1000 bucks.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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WoooHooo!!!!1111666
Pete is on a "truth_serum"™ rant spree! Nice work!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:39am PT
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Good comments, John.
From what I can tell, WoS FA'ists did a different type of enhancement. Not much, but they did. They have been very forthright in their enhancements, and have NEVER tried to hide of minimize what they had done. If anything, I feel they were "too honest". If you wonder what I mean, look at the first post in this thread - sheesh.
Almost tiresome.
But the enhancements done on WoS are kinda unique, I don't know of any other El Cap route that did that kinda stuff. If you want to argue, the amount of grams of rock they removed to climb WoS is rather less than you used to climb Flight of the Albatross, non? And your route is only 2/3 of the crag, right? So isn't WoS more "valid" than Albatross? Are knott micro-crystal enhancements more valid than rivets? I don't know.
Incidentally, Kevin is soloing Flight of the Albatross right now, which is rather more than a bunch of pathetic wankers on this forum are doing this very minute.
Oh, so we're editing while we post, eh? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! I've had 5.5 beers at Facelift, what's yous' guys excuse???
"But you can be damn sure that a route put up by Cole, Grossman, or Shipley will have no such tricks, and the second ascent will always be much easier because the drilled anchors will all be bomber."
Done 'em all, emphatically concur. WoS is a shift in the paradigm. Not everyone gets it.
It's also true that you can be a total DICKHEAD, yet still put up a really good route on El Cap.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:42am PT
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Russ and John, I think that both your points actually dovetail here.
Russ, I would say that any SA team should feel completely free to do the exact same micro-enhancing as the FA team did - removing sub-1mm crystals from horizontal micro-edges would be fair game, drilling a hole or inward indentation of any kind for a hook point wouldn't be. From all the descriptions of the route here I'd say that WoS isn't like many or any other routes around and I can't see why the reality of micro-hooking up a featureless slab should be considered comparable to climbing an overhanging wall. I also don't think it's a repeatable 'line' and never could be - only a path of travel demarced by the fixed pro that now exists.
That doesn't make it any less of a 'route' or accomplishment for me, just a very different sort of route than we commonly associate with climbing. From where I sit, anyone that can hook their way up a featureless, high-angle, nine-pitch line without drilling any actual holes for the hook points gets a big high-five from me. Very different and not my gig, but as valid as any other climbing in my book.
[ Edit: Pete, I agree with you that this is just a very different beast. I mean A4-5 slab aiding? WTF, again, not my deal but I don't see how it can be considered not a valid climbing form given all the other outlandish things climbers do. ]
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:43am PT
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^^^
Hi Pete
Agree with that first part.
But in terms of Flight of the Albatross, the hole count is something on the order of 75 holes, way more than I was happy with (and I've said that in print), but way less than WOS's 145 hole count, of course.
By the way, most people don't do the original start, which heads up the previously unclimbed dirty cracks on the right side of the "heart". Tell your buddy good luck for me!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:45am PT
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I know, I'm just jerkin' your chain. Wanna climb to the Canoe sometime, pretty cool place. Hard to believe that thing is still stickin' to the wall! I hope you put bolts above it, didn't you???
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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Pete- you haven't been up there yet? Alba's feeling a bit dissed, you've climbed nearly the whole stone by now, no?
Yeah, that Canoe is going for the big ride someday. Don't place any gear behind it!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 11:33am PT
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When you have 205 copperheads and 140 plus holes in 9 pitches means there's nothing there. Contrived bullsh'it in my book.
In my book that translates into a piece of sh'it route.
Now don't anybody wet their pants because that's my own personal opinion of a route/line and has absolutely nothing to do with the person/persons involved doing such a thing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Clearly there's nothing there. There would be a conventional route there if there was. But this isn't a 'conventional' route by any means; nor is there a move-for-move or hook-for-hook repeatable route there either. The question isn't whether it meets the standard of a conventional route, it's whether a featureless slab could or should be climbed. Mark and Richard proved you could climb one. I'd say the only questions still open for debate is whether such features should be climbed - i.e. is it a valid climbing form - and could it have been climbed better, cleaner, or faster by anyone else. But then the history of climbing, the Valley, and El Cap is filled with arguments about what could and should be climbed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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But Richard fell madly in love with the shiny white tar baby...
More matter and less art, I say.
Look at the first quote in my last post. Outright lie because of ten batheads not to mention the many splendored enhancements, however many of those there are. I certainly was able to see them high on the route without any difficulty.
Back to the holecount issue soon.
Pete- What is the ugliest part of your body???
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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That's bullsh'it too wes.
A couple of jackasses fuked with them and suddenly everyone else gets lumped into the same boat with them.
That's why this whole thing is such bullsh'it from the start.
There's a lot more that meets the eye than the usual stupid half ass ed bullsh'it that is translated into words on this forum from peoples mental speculations about what happened.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Steve: Ugliest part? Tongue. Last night. Too much beer. I apologize to you, Steve. Gotta watch that. I should STFU myself.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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I was PWD, Werner! Very dangerous! I was kinda afraid when I opened the post this morning, wondering WTF I might have written when I was ranting. Geeez.
Didn't see you at Facelift last night. Were you there? I was the idiot at the back standing next to the beer spigot all night, while everyone else was sitting politely and watching the [very good but too long by about 30%] slide shows.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Nah wasn't there Pete, don't drink.
I was too busy with my duties at the Valley Illuminati meeting .....
P.S. don't tell anyone, it's a ultra secret.
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