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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jan 21, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 22, 2013 - 09:51am PT
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bump for spider savage. has he gone off on an extended road trip? or is he finally pushing that 5.11 line at texas canyon?
just a few side notes on scientology.
1. bill briggs is a lifelong scientologist. from his hall of fame citation:
Bill Briggs is regarded as the father of big mountain skiing in the United States. He was able to imagine and believe it possible to ski in places where no one else had skied before. His first ski descent of Wyoming’s Grand Teton on June 15, 1971 is regarded by most as the single crystallizing moment in American big mountain skiing. He also completed the first high ski traverse in the Canadian Rockies and the first modern ski descent of Mount Rainier.
briggs is also a very respectable rockclimber and banjo picker, and a personal friend of bob dylan's from the days they both played greenwich village coffeehouses.
2. i recently came across the work of paul twitchell, who was in scientology during its early days in the 1950s. he seemed to get right up there to the top, but then he went on to other things, incorporating a possibly imaginary excursion into tibetan mysticism into his "eckankar" religion.
i think there are some interesting parallels between twitchell, carlos castaneda, the "transmigrated" lobsang rampa, and a contemporary entity named anastasia (no, not a certain greek anastasia of mammarian fame) who seems to have captured the imagination of many russians. all are insightful adventures into spirituality which are arguably entirely fictional. arguably.
3. as long as we're talking climbers and cultism, someone posted a photo awhile back of jim bridwell sitting at a picnic table at camp 4 reading a book that looks a lot like a bible. "that's jim's bible," someone commented. it isn't quite that simple. jim's "bible" is a book called urantia, which is yet another opening into realms where many fear to tread.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 22, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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Always knew there was something "off" about any grown-ass man running around calling himself "Spider".
My intuition was CLEAR (godddamn, I even got a bad scientology pun in there!)
Gotta say though, it's alwasy good to have the nutjob cukoos stand up and put the dunce cap on themselves...easier to avoid them in public that way.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 22, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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Well said Bruce, it could be a brilliant philosophy, but how many brilliant philosophers started their own cults, let alone tricked people into joining by not disclosing who they are to the recruits. They seem to prey on naive and depressed people, certainly not a unique attribute of cults and religions. This group has a thousand red flags, even if it wasn't based on science fiction.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jan 22, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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probably 50 percent predatory,
half the people who came in were friends of people already in who thought it was cool enuff to invite their buddies,
the other half was raw meat, pulled in from the campus,
a contrast to the people involved can be seen with the Davis Mission and the Downtown Sac Mission.
Davis was full of lonely college students away from home for the first time, they made very good seizmologists because they were smart enough to get into UC, which means that they did not have any heavy drug addictions or Serious alcohol problems, yet.
now compare that with downtown Sactown, winos laying in the sidewalks of alkali flats, homeless freaks wandering back and forth to Loaves and Fishes, these were the denizens of the deep who were dredged up in order to meet the monthly goal for new pre-clears,
so when we had a group graduation with Sac, i was very happy to get the heck out of there and back to the Normal type seizmologists,
so your mileage may vary depending on where you are located,
vice pres from LA came up and told us that Davis was very special, and probably the best mission in the united states, so the people do make a difference,
we had some pretty good parties every sat night, people gettin drunk, dancin, pickin up fellow seizmologist chicks for the night, havin fun and getting the tech at the same time, so our image to the public was very different from waht was actually going on,
back then at least, i would probably not get involved in the church today, simply because it don't have the same vibe,
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jan 22, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
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Scientology is no different than any one of another 15 organized religions around the world. The only difference is it's age and doesn't have as many members..
You could make a religion based on an old shoe and people would follow it. See "The Life of Brian" for details.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jan 22, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
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if you want to see if it is BS or not, talk to a Clear or an OT.
everyone i talked to was floating off the ground, like they were on acid or something,
but these folks usually do not tell you what they are on unless you ask,
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 23, 2013 - 11:16am PT
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i've got a good religious crime for you, bruce. and a lot of government crimes for that matter, but would they lead you to try to withhold your income tax? or is that an option in canada?
the religious crime is the murder of pope john paul the first. it isn't a well-known conspiracy theory, but it's pretty much outlined in the book in god's name by the british investigative writer, david yallop. this upright churchman, pope for less than a month, was poisoned because he was about to do two things: legalize artificial birth control for catholics, and blow the corruption of the vatican bank out of the water. the result was the unholy and deadly marriage of two interests--the oldfart cynical cardinals who like to dictate bedroom practices, and the financial mafia of italy, playing fast and loose with other people's money and using the vatican bank as a handy laundry.
i guess i have to explain why i bring this up. you'll have a hard time convincing a lifelong practicing catholic that such a crime ever occurred, much less to give up their faith because of it. it's easy to rag on scientology. even easier, i think, to rag on the catholic church. i just thought we might have had an opportunity here to talk about the subject with chris, but i think he's taken his toys and left. seems to be a lot of that going on these days.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 23, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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explain how he reconciles the crimes of the institution of Scientology with his material / spiritual gains from the same institution
Crimes? What crimes? All the evidence was supposed to have been purged back in the 1970's. See United States v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 23, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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Dudes, I gotta work and do other stuff. Plus, everything I had so say has been said.
You want to argue with me about someone's false information about a subject on which you are not expert. I don't have time.
I will try to address all sensible questions as I have time.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jan 24, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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My 22 cents:
In the mid-80's L. Ron Hubbard was living at his Creston ranch, about forty miles from San Luis Obispo. When he died, his handlers tried to spirit the body out to the crematorium - but quick - without any sort of autopsy. The local sheriff, Ed Williams, would have nothing to do with that - there would be an official autopsy, same as any other death in the county.
Well, they found L. Ron was full of drugs and chemicals, some of them used to treat psychiatric disorders. Since Scientology claims such drugs are worthless, harmful, etc., it was a bit of a PR headache for the group. They claimed he took the psychiatric medicines for other reasons, not because he was a raving lunatic.
http://home.earthlink.net/~snefru/deathoflrh/
ALSO:
There are, allegedly, stainless steel sheet pages protected in titanium boxes, hidden in a cave near Trementina, New Mexico. They supposedly comprise all the writings and ravings of L. Ron Hubbard. The idea here is, a future civilization will dig them up, and erroneously believe that our present civilization, or at least a significant portion thereof, believed in what Hubbard had to say.
I'd say it's a case of pre-emptive archeological fraud.
I really, really admire their efforts to document something now, that can be found by people in the future. I just wish it comprised more practical knowledge, like current technology, and not just a bunch of hagiographic hokum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trementina_Base
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 24, 2013 - 12:22am PT
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Ya know ya gotta be careful the baby still ain't in the bath water when ya chuck it.
Hitler did some gud things too. The Autobahn and the Beetle are gud, right?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 24, 2013 - 12:23am PT
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new book out
Lawrence Wright
Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood & the Prison of Belief.
he's long gone
ridin' down to Texas
with the rodeo
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 24, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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Sounds like someone's imitating the Mormons. As gold fake scriptures had already...
They were described by Joseph Smith as "gold-colored" ...they couldn't have been of 100% genuine gold content for several reasons
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan 24, 2013 - 01:43am PT
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Since you asked... :-)
Witnesses estimated the weight at about 50 lbs...considering their size, pure gold would weigh around 200 lbs.
With high gold content, the pages would bend but not have resilience to spring back.
Witnesses said pages were engraved on both sides...that would be very unlikely with high gold content.
Gold pages would be too soft for three rings to bind them.
Some metalurgists say copper alloyed with a small amount of gold was used by ancient Americans, had a gold color, was resilient and highly resistant to corrosion.
I'd better go to bed before Riley accuses me of being a "paid plant" for the Mormon Church, again... :-)
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Michelle
Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
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Jan 24, 2013 - 02:15am PT
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Long, unsubstantiated details left out.. but. My grandfather was waaaaaaaay into it (as in personal buds with l Ron). At one point, in order to get the magic underwear or some such, he paid an ungodly amount of money. My grandmother went apeshit and wrote them a letter, demanding the money back. She got it. All record of him was erased and years later, my aunt was blackballed from a job at a joint they owned. For having the same last name. Silly!
Edit: no offense Jennie!
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