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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2008 - 08:55pm PT
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Hi everybody! You guys having fun here? Just thought I'd drop by - I've been busy elsewhere. Nice that there's so much interest in Darwin and his ideas.
Anyway, Lynne has a good point. Maybe the issue isn't where we've been, but where we are, and where we're going. Having (I hope) free will, we do have some choice about what's next.
I believe the creationists would do better to admit from the outset that there is no scientific basis for their beliefs. That is, scientific in the true meaning of the word. They would also do well to give up the nonsense about scientific theories such as evolution not being "proven". It's somewhat disingenuous that they keep flogging such dead horses, and damages their credibility.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Blight, gee, my posts have largely been directed to discuss the science of evolution, I responded to your first post trying to give an example of scientific reasoning in response to your post which was, essentially, "show me."
Between that post and your next post I was engaging in a discussion on evolution and didn't once denigrate religion... Your next post opened: "I always find it amusing to see this, one of the biggest lies shared by humanism and atheism, touted around" which I took as an accusation on your part that I lied.
Your post was rather negative, and presumptive of a number of things one of which seemed to imply that I was an "anti-religous fanatic," which I am not. Further the discussion was about science, not about religion. The discussion stands on its own without the mention of religion or religious belief, yet that was brought into the discussion early by Jody.
You also take great care to label me as an "atheist," though it is irrelevant to the science discussion. I have said on many occasions, though not in this thread, that I only am concerned with understanding the natural world, I leave the discussions of what happens in the "supernatural" world to others.
Yet somehow, discussing evolution seems to have gotten you so riled that you went to a ad hominem argument very quickly. I appreciate your directness in pointing out your opinion regarding the lie of science, the theory of evolution.
I can tell other "lies" too, one lie that the earth is round, that followed by the lie that the sun is the center of the solar system, yet another that the sun is only one of several hundred billion circling in a galaxy, that that is only one galaxy in a cluster of galaxies, in a cluster of clusters, etc... that we are not the center of it all.
Oh, and that's not all, 'cause we've been busy looking for more, like the lie that the stuff we are made of constitutes only 3% of all the matter in this universe... that we think we know how the universe ends, and we are learning how it began.
So I stand accused.
But hopefully you are less sloppy on your religious studies than you are here ascribing things to me that are simply untrue.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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drgonzo, you can do better than that, kinda mean spirited, and I thought much better from you.
Why do people get so upset over things they cannot absolutely prove. I drink H20 .... it helps keep me and you alive. I can pretty much say that is a fact. Most of the stuff on this thread consists of ideas and philosophical differences.
I like all you guys ... but it bugs me when you allow your discussions to develope into hard feelings towards one another.
I am sorry! to drag my personal life into this thread but DARN, my hub just died, my Mom just had a stroke, my livelihood is compromised, but I don't darn well go around arguing and fomenting bad feelings.
(except with Locker, but can you blame me ? hahaha KIDDING Mr. Locker, he takes everything so seriously)
You all are special to me. We all here on the ST have a common denominator. For crying out loud could we appreciate it. Of course, Peace and Joy from Lynne
PS discussion is Good. It's the bad feeling stuff that bugs me!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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for those of you interested... you can read Bertrand Russell's lecture Why I'm Not A Christian. He is a least British, so Blight won't have the same disdainful comments he has for us colonials... he will have another set.
Interesingly, Russell toward the end of his talk says:
"Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a better place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Geez, Ed, if Jesus and his words help me how does that hurt you guys? Organized religion over time has been very destructive, but the normal person that lives their lives using the example of Jesus, what harm have they done? Just a question from a friend. Lynne
Why does it have to be my way or the highway, why are you guys always making anyone who tries to live their lives by Jesus words bad guys? Just a question from someone that totally respects your opinion.
And if you ask me ...our own efforts haven't gotten us very far. Just look at all the fighting and bickering on ST. and the world in general.
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L
climber
Jello fan from the City of Lost Angels
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I was just in Barnes&Noble getting pissed-off over lies about Jello when I stumbled upon the book:
Thank God for Evolution
Now, it's written by a minister, and shows how God and Evolution can exist side-by-side (yes Jody, they can!), and actually be happy together. From the web site:
Evolutionary Evangelist
Newsweek/Washington Post
by Claire Hoffman
I was just about to toss my New York Times Magazine this morning when this article on Darwinists for Jesus fell open. It's about evolutionary evangelist Michael Dowd who, with his wife, has been traveling the nation and preaching on the sacredness of evolution. I love stories like this, that show the ways that religious thinking can adapt and synthesize to totally modern theories.
Yudhijit Bhattacharjee writes in the Times article that "For the last six years, he has traveled across North America with his wife, Connie Barlow, in a van that displays an image of two fish kissing each other — one labeled Jesus, the other Darwin — explaining to conservative and liberal congregations why understanding and accepting evolution will bring them closer to spiritual fulfillment.
The religious advantage to embracing the evolutionary worldview, Dowd says, is that it explains our frailties, our addictions, our infidelities and other moral deficiencies as byproducts of adaptation over billions of years. And that, he says, has a potentially liberating effect: never mind guilt; once we understand our sinful ways, we can get past them and play a conscious role in the evolution of humanity."
I'm wondering if we should have Lynne pose this for the next ST book club read...what do ya think, Lynnie?
You might solve all the problems on Earth and ST with just one book report...;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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I don't think Ed is being exclusionary in the way you suggest lynnie, it's not evengelical, he just wants so make a point about where it comes from that moves him, like many others do.
-though he can speak for himself and I will shut up, now.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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"Now, it's written by a minister, and shows how God and Evolution can exist side-by-side (yes Jody, they can!), and actually be happy together. "
Duh, I've been saying that all along (not in this thread).
I'm sure Pisschrist (wes) will show up and say something real noble about that though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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When I was growing up in Methodist sunday school, I was taught that evolution was not only compatible with, but first expressed in, the bible.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...or Budha, or Lao-Tze, or any number of wise people whose teachings come down from the ages. Indeed. I would not pronounce, categorically that all religious people I know are dangerous fanatics deluded by myth. I would not pronounce those people as "pathological." I would think about what they said they believed and how it affects them, I wouldn't accuse them of perpetrating lies. My previous discussions on this forum has lead me to ideas different than I started out with, though by no means would those ideas be acceptable to believers (of any form), nor have I changed my disbelief.
It is not "my way or the highway" but you also can't have our wonderful science and technology and maintain particular views of literal biblical interpretation. Eventually these things come into conflict.
In the end you choose how to resolve that conflict. I choose too. Many others have.
Here we are arguing... though Blight would probably admit to only swatting at gnats... and I see Blight's John Gray and raise him a Bertrand Russell... his call now...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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I did not mean to say Ed was being exclusionary, he NEVER is. Sorry if I did not word post correctly. Ed always takes the high road and the right road. lrl TTBOHA
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L
climber
Jello fan from the City of Lost Angels
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Did you already read the book, Jody?
Cause if you haven't, then you're not in a position to say that.
He's a minister...he's studied the bible to a far greater degree than you have...and he's acutally living those words that Jesus spoke...not just bandying them about like pingpong balls. Can you prove you're doing greater works of Christ love than he? Can you prove you know the bible better than he?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Ed, I don't think anything I have said is a literal, biblical interpretation ..... I am not a scientist or word crafter as you are, but I think if you re read my posts you get my meaning.
I am not trying to prove any science or evolution via bible or Jesus words....I am just saying that his words make an enormous impact in ones life if YOU DECIDE to try them out.
You don't need to even entertain his words...it's a life decision to try them out....I was desperate at one point many years ago and did. Glad I needed a crutch....needed help and glad I did cause my life has never been the same in a REALLY wonderful way. Lynne
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L
climber
Jello fan from the City of Lost Angels
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Didn't mean to be offensive, Jody, just honest.
I see people trying to reconcile these differences to bring divided groups together, and I see you standing crossed-armed saying "He's wrong. She's wrong. They're wrong."
Blessed be the peacemakers, Jody...all is not as it seems.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I guess we probably need to define 'evolution' and 'creation' before we discuss it. I'm late here, did that already happen?
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Blight
Social climber
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Atheism is, in and of itself, harmless. That's because in and of itself it's nothing, nothing at all. All atheism is isa space where everyone else has a rich and fulfilling part of their lives.
In that sense it's clear that atheists are literally less than the rest of us: atheist and religious, we share the same areas of intellectual endeavour and exploration except that atheists don't have one of the most important and valuable parts of life: religion.
Of course that's their own choice and they're very welcome to it. But anyone of even modest intelligence knows that there's a very big difference between closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see any light" and closing your eyes and saying "There's no such thing as light".
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Blight
Social climber
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So how is this expressed in atheist thinking?
As can be seen in this thread, it usually comes out as a kind of crude reductionism. There's a strong drive to reduce everything to black and white which, coupled with the trademark paranoia and persecution delusion we discussed earlier, leads to some unfortuntate (if comical) conclusions.
For example: Ed doesn't know what I believe because I've never said what I believe. But because I've questioned the scientific evidence for evolution, he assumes that I'm some sort of fundamentalist or creationist, claiming that discussing evolution has go me "riled" and posting "controversial" facts about commonly accepted scientific principles.
As an interesting aside he makes, of course, grandiose claims for himself, saying that he's open-minded and graciously allows others to discuss supernatural issues, presumably unmolested. But of course his crass assumption, shown above, that because I'm not 100% accepting of evolution that I must reject it entirely, shows that this is just another in the series of lies which are strung together to make "atheism".
As it happens I'm not a creationist at all. I respect creationists and I think their work is very important because it's vital to science that all areas of it are open to question. I admire their stance and although I may not share it I think they're courageous to challenge of the most entrenched and heavily defended areas of science.
Creationists add to human experience by opening up new ideas to consideration and questioning what we think we know. The atheists and evolutionists her are doing exactly the opposite of that: reducing and limiting openness and enquiry, demanding that their dogma be allowed the exclusive right to exist without being questioned.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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'Blight' is right. It's hard to know where to even begin to refute such arrogant, self-righteous, tripe. 'Void'? 'Lesser'? Feel free to continue making an ass of yourself by attempting to propogate the same fear-based tracts which religion has deployed for centuries. Just by your choice of words you reveal more fear than any understanding of what aethiesm is or is not about.
A quick perusal of christianity itself over the past several thousand years reveals a form of evolution hard at work within human organization - the dead-end branches, the mutations, the selection for the hardy - the net result in christian speciation is available in your local phone book with sixty views of christianity which all claim to be 'the way' - not one more believable than the rest, nor are any of them inherently more believable than any form of religion ever expressed throughout history.
Creationism is a clear attempt by christians to obfusticate and suppress science. There is no legitimate science involved, because it always starts with the assertion there was a 'designer' - which is bordering on a new age way of simply obfusticating god.
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Blight
Social climber
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"'Blight' is right. It's hard to know where to even begin to refute such arrogant, self-righteous, tripe."
And it's noticeable that you can't and don't.
Instead you follow exactly the template I laid out earlier and simply adopt the opposite position without qualification or support.
So, my clear statement that I'm not at all threatened by atheism and explanation why not becomes, "you fear atheism".
Then you follow the next predictable stage and ascribe numerous wrongdoings to religion and to creationism in particular.
You're really very predictable.
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