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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
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Mike Bolte - yikes, that looks familiar....makes my tips sweat. Thanks bro.
I guess I'm still surprised more people aren't discussing the environmental ethic here.
Back in the day it was kind of expected that a "free" climber should bring himself up to the level of the rock and not drag the rock down to his level. The clean climbing revolution was one of the more amazing group efforts I've ever been part of. It really was a beautiful thing to see everybody trying so hard to do things clean and not screw up the rock anymore. Not slapping bolts in anywhere was part of it.
Maybe modern climbers are so used to seeing bolts that they don't view them as ugly anymore? When I see over bolted walls it looks like a line of rivets on the hull of a big ship - they destroy the natural beauty of the rock.
Is it just me or do others get that feeling too? Do modern "free" climbers still think about this ethic?
Just wondering, jb
Edit: thanx k-man - how's that funk bass goin' ?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
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Kevin wrote: Standards change, but beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.
And there is the answer for most of us. We take what we want/need and move on. It's different for all of us.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:54pm PT
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If everyone refused to modify the rock and the natural problem presented us through tectonic forces some millions of years ago - there would be no "museum question." For that matter, almost all the questions treated here would not exist.
We would have chalk and its viual blight to deal with, we would have to protect the vegetation, and we would have to work with other users to minimize conflict. Please note none of these real problems are discussed here.
Do we create artificial problems, BECAUSE we look forward to fighting over them?
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jstan
climber
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Sep 15, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
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Kevin:
Very interesting. When I drove my first piton I do remember thinking, "OK. That shows I was here." That phase did not last a long time.
Language is extremely powerful. When I choose to say, "That is impossible" one knows beforehand 50% of the hearers will say "Oh. OK. That's impossible." The other 50% will move heaven and earth to show me wrong.
When we say "Primal" what does that do? 50% will say, "Oh OK. We can't change that. The other 50% will say, "Hell no!
Homo Sapiens has survived because we are adaptable. It is time for us to get busy adapting."
Thank you for raising this point. It is a real help.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:17pm PT
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John, I think that you have touched upon the root issue here that distinguishes it from clean climbing. The only way the slab climbs could be done in a pure 'leave no trace behind' is if there were no bolts placed and no pins placed. This is what you accomplished in the Gunks, to the greater benefit to all climbers. However, if no bolts or pins were placed in the Meadows almost all current routes, if they existed, would be ‘R’ or ‘X’ or free solos and this discussion would be even fiercer.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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I am a ignorant upon why people are obsessed with changing already established routes when there is undeveloped rock "everywhere." If someone want's to established a well bolted climb, why don't they work on creating their own FA? Why must they desire someone else's route?
Plus if is it possible to create a route from the ground up, how can it be "too difficult? "Doesn't this sound like someone is trying to dumb down the climb to accommodate their own abilities? Also, how can anyone say a 5.8 climb is not climbable for a 5.8 climber? That makes me think that the climber has "illusions of their ability" and think they are something they are not. If they can not climb the route because they are not good at slab, shouldn't they work on their slab climbing until they achieve a slab skills to accomplish the route?
The bottom line is that some routes stand as challenges for those who dare. They are the true test pieces for developing hard men. I don't want them changed, instead I want to see who in the future will rise up to them and be the next generation of our heroes.
These routes are not just Museum climbs, these routes are what measure our climbers against the past. These routes helps us figure out if we have skills equal to those before us. I am not surprised that many sport climbers are finding themselves unable to do them. It only shows what they need to work on, and if they truly love this sport... I think a few will rise to the challenge.
AF
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jstan
climber
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:10pm PT
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Roger:
I appreciate your comments very much.
To begin, the problems in each area were set by Mr. Geology. On the whole what I advocated works very well in the Gunks. That is not to say it will work everywhere.
So we have to ask, what would a failure look like? Well if there are a lot of climbers sitting around amidst square miles of rock none of which they personally are able to lead, that could be a problem. Particularly if there is no way to rig a top rope on any of it. While people have been known to do a climb on a top rope and then, once it is wired, to solo it; with their creative juices energized by the prospect, I think that approach can be carried way too far. (Before meeting Henry and some others, i thought it no approach at all. Life is awfully sweet and once dead you can't go climbing.) Are there hundreds of climbers sitting around in Tuolomne with no natural routes available? I don't know. You tell me. There is no trace of a justification based on the need for 10,001 routes when we now have only 10,000.
Now the fact a piece of rock would make a sterling route if only I could climb it, in and of itself justifies nothing. At Seneca I had a great bottom and a even better top pitch picked out. I just lacked any way to protect the middle. Do you know that non-route remains, some 35 years later, a diamond like image in my memory. Just the potential..... Judging by my inability to remember the things I actually did I gained immensely when I refused.
I go back to the story of Joe Brown's last attempt on his great problem at Cloggy, later redpointed(?) and named by another. He refused to use more than the number of pitons to which he had always limited himself. When he refused he showed beyond all doubt that Joe Brown had mastered himself - the single great challenge every person faces upon birth, climber or not. You know who you are - when you refuse.
What we are presently doing is unsustainable. We all have tremendous talent. We all have honesty. We all have regard for each other.
With all of this can anyone really say it is not possible for us now, to take a path that will leave something for the kids?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 16, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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Anastasia said "These routes are not just Museum climbs, these routes are what measure our climbers against the past. These routes help us figure out if we have skills equal to those before us."
I think that's a good point. Hell, some of these routes were put up in EB's or worse. Personally, I'm glad they exist. They don't earn the title "testpiece" for nothing.
On another note: I had to go out and do a semi-museum route yesterday...whew baby!
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Dirk
climber
Boulder, CO
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Sep 16, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
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Mike M, regarding your slab dilemma...
One can always toprope or score a ropegun. Or walk away, right? I think that many climbers have progessed through the grades on the soft end of the rope... good for them.
Your comments have been well appreciated.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 16, 2007 - 04:40pm PT
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Anastasia wrote: "If someone wants to establish a well bolted climb, why don't they work on creating their own FA? Why must they desire someone else's route?"
Maybe because finding and hiking to the location of a new route is a lot of work. Rather than being visionary themselves, they come upon climbs, guidebook in hand, and think that their climbing experience would be better if they changed what's already there.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Sep 16, 2007 - 06:33pm PT
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I don't know if it is a "Museum Route", but my buddy and I just did Goodrich Pinnacle on Glacier Point. Holy Shnikies! On the fourth pitch, I had more than half of a 60m rope payed out, with no pro beyond an old fixed pin! That is 100ft of rope beyond the pin, and in the event of a fall, you are looking at a 200ft+ fall down the cheese grater. The topo says 5.7 runout face climbing, but jeezus! WTF is that all about? I don't think bolts should be added. I just won't do it again. Not worth it. Not fun. Topo should say 5.7 no pro, don't F-ing fall. No wonder nobody else we talked to had done it. They probably all knew better. Hahaha!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 16, 2007 - 07:52pm PT
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Light weight
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jstan
climber
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Sep 16, 2007 - 08:02pm PT
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I am quite conservative and I don't remember that at all. Perhaps you just went the wrong places. Very easy to do.
EDIT:
What I said is I don't remember being run out 100 feet. I would remember that. Sorry if I was not clear.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Sep 16, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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Haha Jaybro! I should have expected that response. Yeah, it's 5.7, easy. You could practically walk up it. But climbing something that run-out doesn't make you hard. It's stupid. Why on earth would anybody voluntairly put themselves in a position to take a 200ft fall on less than vertical terrain? You'll be lookin like a real hard-man when you're being fed through a tube after that one. If you looked up the definition of "not worth it" in the dictionary, there would be a picture of pitch 4, Goodrich Pinnacle.
Edit: Maybe we did get off route, but I don't think so, it's pretty straight up. We even checked it out on rappel, and still couldn't find any bolts, or opportunities for pro. Just a sea of granite. Beautiful climbing but....?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 16, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
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"Maybe we did get off route, but I don't think so, it's pretty straight up."
Slab climbing is a subtle art, and it is a rare slab climb that climbs straight up. They almost always zig and zag, often almost imperceptibly. Route finding, and keeping open eyes and mind, are assets. Both to find what protection there is, and to chart the easiest route.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:00pm PT
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Well put, Kevin! a point that needed to be made.
Spencer, it was just that you set it up so well, I couldn't help dropping that, inevitable, bomb. I don't even remember that climb well enough to comment on it's scary-factor.
Why do it? Have you ever drilled on lead? It's way easier to run out something like that, yeah, yeah, I know. But if you know what you're getting into ...
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
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Yeah point taken. Sometimes you gotta run it out, and speed=safety. I just couldn't believe it. We went from casual climb to, holy sh#t, real fast. We did it no problem, but damn...anything goes wrong, even a simple, stupid mistake, and you will pick up speed real fast, and not be happy with the outcome. I like to keep it relatively safe and sane. Why make it life or death if you don't have to? I've never really been one for the live hard, die young mentality. I'll keep it mellow, and live to be an old arthritic mediocre climber. But that's just me.
Edit: Jaybro, the FA must have had some pucker-factor going on if he chose to run it out instead of drill. I understand that. I'm kind of surprised that he didn't put in a bolt on the way down to protect the climb for the next time he climbed it. Oops, that would be rap-bolting...punishable by death! Ok, got it now.
Mighty Hiker, yeah understood, and agreed, but this one really was pretty much straight up. You should do it! It's fun! Great friction slab climbing!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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Not just you, I'm pretty much there, myself. though no arthritis, but I don't go to doctors, much.
wish I could remember that climb better, I was young, fearless (kinda) and immortal ( I was positive on that point,) then.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:34pm PT
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Maybe propose the route to be included in the new SuperTopo guide to the Apron or something.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 16, 2007 - 11:57pm PT
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I got a route for you Spencer. It's a slab; Never ending story, I forget the rating (edit .11b) it's at Vedauwoo. Climb the crux of Mainstreet (ow) then hang a right and follow the bolts on unlikely crystal pimping. On the first ascent, Coach (Layne Kopishcka, RIP)
climbing on a solo, self belay lead rig, placed just a few bolts. Later he thought it was too runout (he was right, imho) and placed more bolts on Rapel.
Layne did what he thought was best, for future partys, and in line with the then current local ethic. We can only assume that's what the FFA-ers on Goodrich did. We don't have to agree with them, but accept it for what it is. Though, sometimes, you have to wonder ... which, it sounds like, is exacly what you were doing in your post, Spencer.
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