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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I suspect in the case of the dimpled cams where the brazing looked perfect, but simply didn't bond adequately to walls of the receiver, that they would by-and-large look completely fine in an x-ray. A braze where the stem wasn't all the way in or where there were significant voids in the braze, such as in the case of the cam Russ broke, would seem more likely discoverable by this method.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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I just got back my last 3 (previously) untested aliens (dated 09/02). CCH was prompt (as in my previous dealings with them)... It is a personal decision to use them or not (tested or not), but bear in mind that sometimes aliens hold falls in placements where no other gear (seems) to be able to hold its weight, never mind hold a fall. What is the difference between a very reputable cam that blows out of a (marginal) placement because its design will not allow it to "stick", and an alien that (might) break?
One of the cams I just got back from CCH kept me off the deck once, and while that has no statistical significance, it surely has a personal one. I do not do mechanical design, but as an engineer, I can spot a good design, and alien cams are one of those designs that even when executed poorly can be superior to a perfectly executed lesser design. So I made the personal choice to trade some of the safety that reputable companies offer (BD, Metolius) for the safety of a superior design (my trad rack is all Metolius, Camalots and Aliens). Saying all these, I think CCH should reconsider their manufacturing process, or maybe partner (?) with some other company and bring this very good design to the next level. My 2 cents...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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From the site nobody wants to look at or comment on:
Penetrating radiation
CRACKS, density and chemistry variations, elemental distribution, foreign objects, inclusions, microporosity, misalignment, missing parts, segregation, service degradation, shrinkage, thickness, VOIDS
Electromagnetic and electronic
alloy content, anisotropy, CAVITIES, COLD WORK, local strain, hardness, composition, contamination, corrosion, CRACKS, crack depth, crystal structure, electrical and thermal conductivities, flakes, heat treatment, hot tears, inclusions, ion concentrations, laps, lattice strain, layer thickness, moisture content, polarization, seams, segregation, shrinkage, state of cure, tensile strength, thickness, disbonds
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ramonjuan
climber
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I'm pretty sure that there is not a reliable way to do NDT in this instance. With the exception of seeing if the cable was inserted to the correct depth. What did you have in mind?
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:38pm PT
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all i have to say is watch this video.... CCH welded the steel head on tested it to the 1700 lbs. stampted it tested then tested it again to 2800lbs.. and no it is no staged i work for CCH and was standing right there.. reply back and let me know wut u think
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/video/test_ 5-25-2007.MPG
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:43pm PT
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That URL must have been through the same QA process as your cams.
Thumbs up boys!
But really, if you do work for cch, how does CCH plan to address the problem of hundreds if not thousands of unknown garbage pieces out there?
We all know a good braze is good enough. That's got nothing to do with CCH's problems.
-Fear
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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sry for the bad URL try this one: http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/video.html
im not gonna say anything about wut CCH is going to do because im not in a mangment positin nor pretend to be.. But i know if u call and speak with the owner Dave he will explain to u what further actions he is going to take
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 10, 2007 - 10:50pm PT
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yeah it doesnt seem to be loading on my end either. maybe wait longer.. ill try it at work tomorrow and fix it if it is not loading.. so im guessing no one trusts aliens right now?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
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"broken link"
All I need to know.
Side note: Maybe Del Taco is hiring.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 10, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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so im guessing no one trusts aliens right now?
Let's just say that some of us are having our doubts ... I have spoken to Dave on the phone, and I feel pretty good about talking to him. I guess his organization is what makes me worried.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 11, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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its nice that u r sticking up 4 ur company, but im not going to quit backing up my aliens with camalots cuz i saw ur attempt to post a link to a single cam that supposedly didnt break and also cuz, well just cuz.
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climber159
Boulder climber
Laramie, Wy
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Jun 11, 2007 - 03:05pm PT
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well the video should load now or IT guy fixed it this morning
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 11, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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Thanks man,
Not to bust your balls or anything since you're not "management". At least you're trying some kind of spin control which isn't your job. It's pathetic your "management" hasn't stood up.
The video loads now but what does it prove? It proves a good Alien with a good braze should break at the cable. If anything this video damages CCH's "case" even more.
The many recent, clearly photographed failures were not cable failures but bad braze failures. And these were non-dimpled Aliens.
But at least someone at CCH gives a sh#t. Get your resume together and get the hell out of there!
Oh well....
-Fear
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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CLIMBER159
I hate to rain on the parade.
I have been silent awaiting a design change from CCH.
Now you speak on behalf of CCH to defend the product/process as it currently stands. I have to speak up now.
I pulled 12 aliens of current production.
2 failed
1 Blue 1200 pounds Stamped "Tested" and "L" on the head and "Tensile Tested" on the loop.
Date stamp on trigger 307
2nd Yellow 1100 pounds Stamped "C" on the head and "Tensile Tested" on the loop
Trigger is stamped 307
I did the testing on May 11, 2007.
Problems with the test:
Dyno is a 15k dyno. Idealy you are using 80% of the range.
The pull was done with an electric winch with a dyneema runner wrapped around the head.
These issues do not offer enough variable in my humble opinion to warrant the failures insignificant.
Note: on this day I tested 12 cams and 2 failed.
I have another 14 cams that did not fail on tests done last year.
I informed both retaliers that supplied the cams to me of the problem. They both continue to sell them. Although 1 has communicated in detail that they are desperatly trying to help CCH get QC under control.
I sent the failed cams to Norhtwest Labs for evaluation. Once they received them they informed me they could not do an evaluation because they are in the middle of an evaluation that may result in legal action (Rick Schefsky at N.West Labs).
I wish you would sell the brazing gear and start crimping the cable.
FYI: the failure looks similar to the Sauders Crack failure... It is not that the cable was not inserted all the way. The cable broke at the braze and severed itself slightly inside the braze.
I am a fan of the product, I even tried to buy the company because the design concept is fantastic, but you cannot have cams failing. There is already too many things to go wrong in this sport.
Fix the process, get 100% outside testing and comeback to the market place. Hell, if you do that, I would even help promote your product.
I have pictures. I do not have any desire to go through the photo buck thing to post. If somebody wants to post them, send me an email and I will fire them your way.
Now, I would like to disapear back into my positive world of climbing and the outdoors.
Kind regards and good luck,
Jay
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2007 - 05:22pm PT
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Wow.... interesting and scary results.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 11, 2007 - 05:31pm PT
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Send them my way and I'll post them. xs.to is the simplest site for hosting I've found so far, just a couple clicks, and no registering at all. seann_woolery(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
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Moof
I have sent the pictures.
I broke it into 4 emails.
Thank you
EDIT: Russ, I sent them to you too.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:08am PT
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Here they are in full glory. I hacked them down to 800x600 or less (some started at 640x480). I also put them in pretty low quality. If you want the full quality look at the adress for the image and look up the same files, but without the "_s" at the end of the name.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:25am PT
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Hey only two out of 12. Why that's no worse than Russian roulette with a six shooter. ha ha. 3/07 manufacture date; this story keeps getting worse. So what does "tensile test" mean. I thought tested to 1700 lbs.
I sent mine in recently for a checkup but even then my faith is fading. Fortunately mine are offsets and basically are only on my aid rack. Still feel ripped though. They're new and cost me big bucks.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jun 12, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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These were clearly being loaded such that a high bending force was being placed right at the joint. It's clear from the yellow alien loading picture. I'm not convinced this is a valid test. Anyone who knows what Mohr's circle is knows the stress goes up geometrically as a bending force is added. Is this bending force valid and would other cams survive it? I don't think so.
New operating hypothesis: At Souder's Crack, only half the lobes were "set", causing the cam to fail in the same way as above. 1100 lbs isn't far off of a 10-20 foot fall on a short pitch.
TO DO: Get cams tested to 1800 lbs, by CCH, in their TENSILE fixture, loaded above the failure of any brazing snafu I've seen, then make sure to "set" cams after I place them, just as I was taught. Or, wait for braze to get designed out of the cam...
Would a mid 90's WC flex friend fail if loaded the same way? I've seen the stem snapped off on more than 1 of those cams.
JLP
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