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Take!Take!
Trad climber
Durango Colorado
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Good grief, really! Who gives a crap about grammar, paragraphs, and spelling. The article was interesting as hell. Was great to hear about something going on, from someone that was right there. If you have to have paragraphs to follow a story, you need to go back to 5th grade English! Fun read "Little Cotton-er"
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Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
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Kelly-
What a great idea! "Chop" the cables on halfdome... Fill in those huge holes with epoxy... I'm serious. Imagine topping out on half dome on a summers day and having it all to yourself! I agree wholeheartedly.
And you said it all too well: the notion that placing bolts is OK but pulling them is wrong - I think that's way out of line.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Golsen wrote:
I was kind of bumbed out that things got cleared up. I had several ascents that I bailed due to weather that I was goin to start claiming as SUMMITED.
LOL
Best line in this thread so far, in my knott-so humble opinion.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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--So, as many people have expressed, anyone is free to place bolts whenever and wherever they want (that's the de facto and sometimes outright notion here). But, what, it's a one-way street? If anyone is free to place a bolt, since nobody owns the rock, they anyone is free to remove it. Common, basic, logic. Of course we temper placing and removing with discussions, reason, etc. But I fully call bullshit on this notion that it's universally wrong to remove a bolt (which I've never done, for the record) yet it's universally OK to place a bolt (I'm not opposed to bolts; I've placed two in my life). WTF? Where's the logic in that?
you can't seriously be comparing any old bolts, placed by any old climber on any old route, to those bolts in particular, can you?
and regarding your escalator/via ferrata description- well you have seen it so you know the deal, but as of right now and until i learn more, "I fully call bullshit" that steve schneider was all bent because some bolts on some juggy 5.6 slab or next to a perfect crack were gonna be chopped. i have climbed a lot of schneider's routes (or tried to in some cases, but like someone else in this thread, i was about to call them all onsights...), and i have yet to be left w/ the impression that he was into clipping his way up juggy 5.6 slabs.
"Of course we temper placing and removing with discussions, reason, etc"
that's really the heart of the issue, is it not?
unilaterally acting on one's own "vision" (thus the gW inspired 'cowboy' label by the local quoted upthread somewhere), vs what you suggest in that sentence is a given...
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raymond phule
climber
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Is detailed information about the route avialable on the internet, for example a topo?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The final bolt ladder of the Nose goes free at 12b. Probably a lesser level of skill than required to do the compressor variations in an intense place like Patagonia. Why not chop the Nose ladder if we're all free to remove and add bolts as we please?
And, what about the flip side. Say the Nose just went up and some hotshots didn't drill a final ladder but just a 12b face climb. Would I be free to put a bolt ladder up there so the rest of us could climb it?
We have to work together and at least get close to consensus. It's tough and one of the principles that have made it a tad easier on us all is respect for the first ascent. I wish there was a better way, I'd love to hear it.
peace
Karl
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Madzooks2
Sport climber
Bend Oregon
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I Just put up a new route, and I did it with no shirt. So I therefore decree that no one is allowed to climb my route wearing a shirt. If you wanna climb a route free, don't clip the bolts. Don't be jackasses and cut bolts or start fights.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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So, speaking of that, when is someone going to ask Maestri what he thinks about these shenanegans?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Not to be a pain in the ass. But this is from the AAJ article from Rolando.
It is not for journalists to doubt the word of climbers, but what they can and should do is to obtain convincing accounts of climbs before according them proper credit. It is essential that
magazine and journal editors are not credulous, for we all rely on the accuracy of such records.
Might this not be pertinent to Zack and Josh's account as well? This is not to doubt, merely to point out that when the going got tough it sounds like they resorted to the very bolts that they had originally planned on yanking. This is not bad, merely human...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Not sure I’m "committed to the core" enough to start including a crowbar as part of my alpine climbing rack.
-Brian in SLC
ps: Kelly, good posts. And, great read in the lastest issue of Rock and Ice!
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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fatty, you need to READ the whole thing to realize how WRONG you are....
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mbb
climber
the slick
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If we have all learned one thing from this lengthy discussion it must be that it has become perfectly clear that snooky has a boner for bachar.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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whatever pal, you can continue to ignore the international community's perception in this (or any other) matter, but when an argentinian local calls these guys cowboys, he's not picturing cowboys and indians, he's thinking that americans could give a rats ass what anyone else thinks about anything, no matter where they happen to be. i know it's been 2 or 3 decades since you ever climbed anything, and maybe in walnut creek or at your PNAC meetings that is not so apprent, but if you ever actually went anywhere and spoke to anyone, that's what you would probably hear.
edit-
if you have something more to say, edit your above post or email me directly, but don't make this thread another itchy and scratchy show.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Boner For Bachar™... sounds like a good name for a route!
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Not many have said that they think the Compressor Route should be chopped.
I do.
Of course, I'm a nobody, but one person's opinion shouldn't decide this anyway. This is the type of thing that affects the entire climbing community, and people bristle when they believe someone is making decisions for them without consulting the community...
If a climber's meeting down there was 10-1 against, then I don't think it should be chopped. So I think Freddie Wilkinson was right - for now, the Argentines get to decide.
However, if a solid international consensus could be developed (a series of meetings?), then perhaps the bolts could be removed someday. This would be wonderful.
Why?
Because then Cerro Torre would truly stand as one of Earth's most inaccessible summits.
Inaccessible summits are, after all, one of our rarest commodities.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Thanks to Steve S. for posting up and being a humble enough guy to admit where he was wrong. Admitting you were wrong doesn't make other people right and ultimately it allowed him to make good out of this whole situation. Big kudos.
I realize I'm late to the party and that this has more or less resolved but it didn't seem like too many people were weighing in for Bean early in the thread and so I wanted to present perhaps a slightly more informed view of Bean Bowers. I know Bean from Prescott College where we were students and he was ultimately one of my instructors. I've climbed with him and camped with him, though not in several years. He's an extremely driven guy, but very smart and very capable. He's strong as hell and it doesn't suprise me that he would go a little nuts once his temper got fired up, but he's no thug and no jerk. If I were in trouble in the mountains he's probably the number one guy I'd want helping me in the whole world, bum ankle and all. I hope that for those of you that don't know him personally but meet him some day keep an open mind about who he is. I'm sure given the opportunity he would happily admit that he went overboard with Steve. Bean's a human just like the rest of us, and bound to make mistakes.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Alpinist_magazine said
Wharton and Smith skipped all the lead bolts until the final three pitches of the headwall (and obviously the last pitch of soloing to the near-summit), where weather forced them to start clipping.
No, sorry. Since they were rapping the route anyway, the weather didn't force them to start clipping the bolts.
Descending from there was an option.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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not that my vote matters either, but i'm with broken. untouchable summits are a commodity that grows more rare every year. if we can't correct the mistakes of the past, then we'll probably be out in my lifetime.
at least josh's style has denied many of the whiners on this thread the ability to clip their way up the flame, that's something.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Newsflash - I don't think I would have removed the bolts even if I could have free climbed or clean aided all that section of rock. I am not experiencing a boner...(at the moment).
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Untouched summits? I thought the thread was about Cerro Torre.
Thanks to Steve for standing up for the compressor route. Re-writing history's cool, unless you re-write it with bullsh#t. Cool idea and effort to send sans bolts, but no need to remove em to f^%$ up others experience repeating Maestri's line.
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