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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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How much extra would it cost to make gear loops 15kn strong?
Is there a good reason not too?
Would they slow people down too much?
Would such harnesses take forever to save up for?
Do many people seem to have accidents on pre-described easy terrain?
Perhaps there is no true correlation determining how safe someone is, based on how easy the terrain is for them, and how confident they feel on it.
If a fall means overloading the gear/system/terrain/body, then the practice could be described as.......?
Extremely risky seems okay as long as those involved, and closely affected by the consequences, agree on what will be practiced is safe-enough.
Guessing that is part of a fair deal when accepting to be loved and supported by those who also feel the pain.
Are there moments of you-fall-the-system-fails, on TC and AH’s approach to the nose record?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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JLP and D2R2 - I normally have pretty good reading comprehension. I just blew past the gear loop versus haul loop as everyone I climb with uses the haul loop for the tag/haul line; never seen anyone attach the tag/haul line to a gear loop. Get off my back.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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johntp you missed this one too. D2 quoted me. He was tryng to take a dig at me taking a dig at you. It appears you’re both in good company, nobody in this thread is reading anything. For sure, this is a complicated accident few have the climbing background to understand.
^ Where did you get 200m? You made it up and posted it as fact. [and then apparently edited everything about your post...] [and then apparently deleted it...]
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Does it really help you all to know exactly what led to this tragedy?
All the supposition here is nauseating.
These two men knew the risks and accepted them in pursuit of their passions. This is their choice to make.
I've abandoned certain sports due to concerns for my family.
I know these were the right choices for me.
The same decisions made by others is not for me to judge.
I hope their respective families find peace sooner than later.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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How much extra would it cost to make gear loops 15kn strong?
Is there a good reason not too?
Would they slow people down too much?
Would such harnesses take forever to save up for?
I believe Metolius harnesses are made such that all loops are tie-in strong.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
(edit: 4.5kN)
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up2top
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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"Does it really help you all to know exactly what led to this tragedy?"
Yes. It's the best way we can honor their loss. Learn as much as we can from the accident in hopes of preventing it again.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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How much extra would it cost to make gear loops 15kn strong?
Metolius has been making Safe Tech Harnesses for years in an attempt to address this kind of incident though, while I don't know for certain, I believe the gear loops are only 4.5kn, but that's still better than nothing. We also don't know what rope they were using. All told it makes me wonder if the outcome would have been any different with a Safe Tech harness and Unicore rope, but we'll never know.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jordan is saying the rope severed after Tim fell. Jordan is also saying Jason’s mid fall stop happened before Tim fell.
The description is consistent with the top pair simulclimbing with protection between them that failed when the leader fell; this would account for the observed momentary pause of the leader's fall. The pair then fell together, which suggests that at that point the second had weighted the rope, perhaps by virtue of having been lifted by the leader's fall impact (the observer did not mention seeing any lift however), or maybe as a "belaying" reaction to the leader fall. With both climbers weighting the rope, the failure of a single point of support would cause the observed fall of both together, until the rope connecting them snagged on a block and then severed.
The trailing rope from second to third was attached to one of the second's gear loops, which ripped out under the impact.
I found a detail indicative of the party's attention to safety concerns: the anchor left for the third consisted of two bolts and a cam placed above them. This is in line with a philosophy of possibly taking risks but not imposing risks. The third had no choice about the anchor for their toprope solo and so was provided with a backed-up anchor, not just the two bolts that were in place, which might have been chosen by a party whose overiding concern was speed. Somehow, for me, this gesture to take an extra precaution for your teamate makes the tragedy all the more poignant.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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When I started climbing, I really believed that if I followed the "rules," I would climb in complete safety. Within a few years, experience showed me the errors in my belief, and I concluded that climbing, like life, has plenty of risk associated with our fallen humanity. From all I've read, both climbers were extremely experienced and competent, and were wonderful people besides.
We probably won't know exactly what caused the fall, and it seems out of place to speculate about it now. I think we spend our time better in introspection, recognizing that most of us who've climbed for any length of time have made "errors only a beginner would make," and I, at least, probably will do so again, most likely to save time.
Since finding out about this tragedy, I can't stop thinking about what would happen to my family if I were the deceased. It's been at least 45 years since I had my ego wrapped up I my bouldering prowess (since my climbing was never much), but the simple joy of climbing has never left me, and probably won't as long as I can still do so without excessive pain. Am I being selfish by continuing to climb?
I hope I'm not alone in these thoughts.
John
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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I believe Metolius harnesses are made such that all loops are tie-in strong.
Thank you for the heads up. I am going to get and use one. And write to my preferred manufacturers and ask why they don’t promote them?
We probably won't know exactly what caused the fall, and it seems out of place to speculate about it now. I think we spend our time better in introspection, recognizing that most of us who've climbed for any length of time have made "errors only a beginner would make," and I, at least, probably will do so again, most likely to save time.
Someone probably will find out. One of the survivors was witness to the system that the other two fell on. Gear limitations are understood by engineers. The terrain is familiar to those who are analysing the event. Lessons learned in the past will also inform probabilities.
I imagine that it must feel polarising for some to look up from the meadow at the moment, and contemplate whether it is a good time to ve on the Salathe. It’s such a beautiful place to be, see, and feel things.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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John, when terrible things like this happen, I think there is an overwhelming desire to understand that drives the speculation---at least I experience that, and console myself with the thought that is is driven by a deep human instinct and not a shallow proclivity to rationalize away the horror. Perhaps it is wrong to indulge that urge, be it base or noble, but I feel that if the climbers had survived, they would have thought long and hard about every aspect of what happened, and in their absence it falls to us to try to fill in the blanks, even, or perhaps especially, because of the inevitability of never knowing for certain.
In any case, I don't think there is a dichotomy between striving to comprehend the almost incomprehensible and the kind of introspection that you suggest is a more appropriate response---for me they go together.
I have had and continue to have many of the kinds of thoughts you describe. When my daughter was born, I cut out a whole lot of activities I had been perfectly happy to pursue before. I stopped soloing, simulclimbing, and stepped back from alpine climbing. I had goals that I gave up, and honestly didn't mind doing so. But I didn't, and haven't, stopped climbing altogether, believing I had reduced the risks to a tolerable level, whatever tolerable means. But this is just me---I have never judged anyone for making different choices.
There's been some commentary that the "older generation" has forgotten what climbing is about. Maybe, but for those of us who have been at it continually, who have seen our own mistakes and understood our luck in surviving them, who have lost good friends---too many good friends, who watched from afar as some of the leading lights of successive generations succumbed, and through it all have carried on anyway, at least at some level, it is reasonable to wonder. To wonder whether we have arrived at an understanding that is not forgetting, but rather incorporating a breadth of experience, conditioned by the introspection you so rightfully promote, that may not available to those further back on the path.
What this terrible tragedy, and other ones before it, ultimately teach is that we simply don't have the control we think we do. Perhaps one has to survive to old age before those words actually sink in; I don't know about that. But in view of such realizations, we all have to decide what to do with that passion that still stirs our spirits.
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jstan
climber
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Eventually I found climbing's benefit/risk trade off stopped working for me. So I quit. It has been good. The best part of climbing always was the sitting on a rock in the sun and breathing cool fresh air. Still do that.
Fritz Weissner's trade off never stopped working as has Richard's. That is good too.
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cellardoor
Big Wall climber
The Sierra
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Tim and Jason’s seasonal romp up the Big Stone was something I looked forward to every season. Their presence seemed to benchmark my growth as a climber.
First, it was climbing the Salathe Wall for the first time in 2013. As a wide-eyed noob, I was in disbelief with their amazing athletic abilities, stamina, and lighted-hearted approach to climbing something so ungodly in a day.
As I progressed in climbing, I returned again, to the base of Freeblast, eager to make the first all female one day Salathe ascent. At 4:30 am, we were not the first to the base. Tim and Jason were. We didn’t even try jockey in front of them. I remembered that laughter and ease as each pitch seemed to melt away below their feet. Other teams que’d in behind us, and before their take off, we all had a dance party.
Again, in 2016, before an attempt on Freerider, we found them at the base, frothing at the bit and antsy to get a quick romp before returning to families and careers. They had hardly slept the night before, racing North from L.A.
Last fall, at another pre-dawn start to my attempt at Freerider in a day, I found them encapsulated with the same joy children have. No contest for who went first! Even though, I continued to push myself every year, I was no contender for those two. This time, I was scared of such an outing, but they assured me that there were no bad days on El Capitan. Within a few minutes of starting the route, they were both off the ground, moving fluidly through the bottom third of the wall. By the time we reached the slabs, they were nearing the monster. I was always in awe of those two.
What I fail to see at times in my own personal journey is contentment. Tim and Jason, balancing their obsession with movement and El Cap and lives nobly spent teaching, parenting, serving others, were content and full of joy on the wall. I could count on nothing less than unbridled psyche and optimism. It makes me wonder if a life always seeking and pushing breeds real happiness, or rather, a life of balance allows one to really enjoy each moment and experience as it comes.
'To live until death is to live enough,' words from Lao Tzu. Those brief memories at the base of the Salathe with those two are so very cherished. I didn’t know them at all really, but something makes me believe these two men truly lived their lives with richness.
My heart goes out to the family, friends, YOSAR, and everyone affected by the accident.
big love
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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The possibility that they were moving together over 5th class terrain a rope length apart without at least one belay quality anchor between them is difficult to comprehend.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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The possibility that they were moving together over 5th class terrain a rope length apart without at least one belay quality anchor between them is difficult to comprehend. that's not how simulclimbing works though. you don't have belay style anchors in between. Often times (and here) it's used to extend a pitch beyond the rope's length so there can't be a fixed anchor. I would hope maybe out of this comes a standard though. Maybe always keep three (or two bomber) pieces between you and the 2nd. Maybe have a radio to confirm that (yeah they're heavy but a battery that only has to last a couple hours isn't that heavy).
It seems as though the secondary goal of making sure any accident is limited to only one person has been shuffled to the side a little bit in the interest of speed, and that has to be looked at.
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Bald Eagle
Trad climber
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Desperately sad and tragic news so deepest condolences to Jason and Tim's family, friends and loved ones.
Cheers
Dave
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I think what Chief means is at least 2 or 3 bomb proof pieces in the system rather than the old Euro method of wandering arround tied together with no gear to keep you on the mountain...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The description is consistent with... The article, taken face value for every detail, described something that could have been caused any number of ways. However, Jordan could not have seen much more than Prince. It’s physically impossible to see more than a few odd feet of that pitch from below the Half Dollar.
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Glacier Point Gavin
Trad climber
Yosemite National Park
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Tim and Jason’s seasonal romp up the Big Stone was something I looked forward to every season. Their presence seemed to benchmark my growth as a climber.
First, it was climbing the Salathe Wall for the first time in 2013. As a wide-eyed noob, I was in disbelief with their amazing athletic abilities, stamina, and lighted-hearted approach to climbing something so ungodly in a day.
As I progressed in climbing, I returned again, to the base of Freeblast, eager to make the first all female one day Salathe ascent. At 4:30 am, we were not the first to the base. Tim and Jason were. We didn’t even try jockey in front of them. I remembered that laughter and ease as each pitch seemed to melt away below their feet. Other teams que’d in behind us, and before their take off, we all had a dance party.
Again, in 2016, before an attempt on Freerider, we found them at the base, frothing at the bit and antsy to get a quick romp before returning to families and careers. They had hardly slept the night before, racing North from L.A.
Last fall, at another pre-dawn start to my attempt at Freerider in a day, I found them encapsulated with the same joy children have. No contest for who went first! Even though, I continued to push myself every year, I was no contender for those two. This time, I was scared of such an outing, but they assured me that there were no bad days on El Capitan. Within a few minutes of starting the route, they were both off the ground, moving fluidly through the bottom third of the wall. By the time we reached the slabs, they were nearing the monster. I was always in awe of those two.
What I fail to see at times in my own personal journey is contentment. Tim and Jason, balancing their obsession with movement and El Cap and lives nobly spent teaching, parenting, serving others, were content and full of joy on the wall. I could count on nothing less than unbridled psyche and optimism. It makes me wonder if a life always seeking and pushing breeds real happiness, or rather, a life of balance allows one to really enjoy each moment and experience as it comes.
'To live until death is to live enough,' words from Lao Tzu. Those brief memories at the base of the Salathe with those two are so very cherished. I didn’t know them at all really, but something makes me believe these two men truly lived their lives with richness.
My heart goes out to the family, friends, YOSAR, and everyone affected by the accident.
big love
Thanks Mayan.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
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that's not how simulclimbing works though. you don't have belay style anchors in between.
Why not have 2 or 3 belay-quality placements between climbers *at all times* when moving together? I shudder at the thought of ever settling for anything less.
My heart goes out to all of those affected by this horrible accident.
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