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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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May 20, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
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surely this father can be charged with some sort of gross negligence
Only if our society begins to recognize this dad was even slightly negligent could we ever get to the point where it will be considered grossly negligent. I've read parents proudly post (perhaps even here?) how their kids are so "well trained" that they can leave guns lying around the house and the kids won't touch them. When a congressional candidate can point a gun at a teenager as part of his "proud gun owner, defender of the 2A" campaign ad, we have a long way to go.
FFS, you can be sued for leaving a swimming pool gate unlocked, why the heck can't people be held responsible for their guns?
TE
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 20, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
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why the heck can't people be held responsible for their guns?
They/we/I all should be.
This sucker is bolted to the concrete pad with four 1/2" five piece bolts, on the inside.
My guns are locked up:
When the house is empty.
When there are young people in the house (we don't have kids.) But for example if my 19 yr. old nephew is visiting they're locked, 24-7 (Of course the nephew lives in France, so I take him to the range since it's something he can't do there.)
If there's a party going on. If people are drinking, smoking, whatever, that thing is locked.
If I have guests or visitors I don't know well. A repair person for example. Heck, I could excuse myself to take a crap and some creep could go poking around.
And I never, ever leave a gun lying around the house.
Of course not every gun owner has the place for a big safe like that, and they're pricey (I keep other valuables and my camera gear, extra hard drives, the laptop, Important documents, etc. in there too.)
But there are much less expensive and smaller options for locking up your guns. Some of them, for example a long gun locker that slides under a bed can be stolen, but at least your kids can't get the gun.
The minimum standard should be that if someone commits a crime with my gun there will be serious consequences for me.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
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But even indictment and trial would send a serious heads-up to those that leave guns laying around and accessible to minors.
I believe that there are quite effective controls proposed (id sensitive gun safeties, e.g. finger print reader like your cell phone, or other biometric means of identification) to prevent the use of firearms.
The sort of "use control" could prevent kids from using guns at home for this sort of horrific event, and still allow guns to be used by those authorized.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 20, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
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id sensitive gun safeties
It's an interesting idea, but there are a lot of problems. Not the least of which are the millions of guns already owned which don't have this feature. And of course my nephew wouldn't be able to shoot my guns at the range.
I think it's important to focus on achievable goals. Holding a gun owner responsible if their unsecured weapon is used in a shooting is a start. The punishment would have to be enough to really send a message.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 06:47pm PT
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you could certainly program in a time and probably a place at which different id's could use the guns.
and you could offer it as a possible product in the gun market and let time and market forces decide.
I don't see why this isn't a viable option. One responsible choice would be to acquire guns with use control, which is what a safe, etc. are... though apparently not effective.
Use control also eliminates the problem of stolen guns being used by the unauthorized.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
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Use control also eliminates the problem of stolen guns being used by the unauthorized.
The biggest reason why responsible gun owners are not wowed by the present state of the technology is that it's not even close to 100% reliable.
Heck, I can't even get the fingerprint reader on my phone or tablet to work correctly. And the one on the gun safe in my car so often doesn't work that I end up using the key most of the time anyway, which defeats the whole promise of "absolute security with almost instant access."
What every gun owner rightly expects is that when that gun is legitimately supposed to go "bang," it ALWAYS goes "bang."
The current state of "smart gun" technology is such that the gun often does not go "bang" when it is supposed to.
It's going to be a hard row to hoe after various unsuccessful attempted roll-outs to convince new purchasers that "We've worked out the bugs. Really, really." And that doesn't count the many legitimate use-cases that are precluded by, say, fingerprint technologies, such as: wearing gloves!
Meanwhile, some serious heads-up legislation, along with some high-profile cases of irresponsible gun owners being prosecuted, is a good step toward educating negligent fathers like this most recent one: There's a new sheriff in town.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
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I think we would be better off with far fewer guns in the hands of private citizens, and the vast majority of law enforcement experts agree. We are a violent species. According to the CRIME CLOCK, in the U.S.
Someone is murdered every 31 minutes.
Someone is raped every 1.9 minutes.
Someone is assaulted every 36.9 seconds.
A home is victimized by theft every 4.8 seconds.
A home is burglarized every 18 seconds
A woman is victimized by an intimate partner every 52 seconds.
Fewer guns, yes, but that is only the tip of the iceberg. I wonder how many crimes have been avoided because we choose to attack, pound on, assault and maim inanimate cliffs of rock rather than people
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 08:08pm PT
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Comparing Norway (that oh so conveniently had one severe event in the last 100 years, then because it was relatively recent to fit it into the data set to make it seem like we aren't the worst) is either simple dishonesty or stupidity. Your choice.
My choice is to say: False dichotomy.
First, it's a general fact that studies are "cooked" to make a point. Studies of studies are a bit more reliable. But studies start with biases and then "demonstrate" them, particularly when they are paid for by entities with an agenda (as most studies are).
One way they do so is by the judicious use of time slices. The use of the Norway study above does this, but it's not, as you say obviously stupid. I get what you're saying about the US having a "trend" compared to a single, recent event. But determining what the two mean is precisely where the devil lies!
If you're going to cite trends, well, the trend has been downward in the USA, both in terms of gun-homicide in general and in terms of mass-shootings.
https://mises.org/wire/there-are-fewer-school-shootings-now-during-1990s
And that's with an undeniable and quite significant increase in the number of both guns and gun owners. So, "studies show" is a particularly tendentious basis for a substantive claim, and that's an indictment of both "sides" of the debate.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
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The biggest reason why responsible gun owners are not wowed by the present state of the technology is that it's not even close to 100% reliable.
I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 20, 2018 - 11:50pm PT
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I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
In a free society, we accept a pretty wide range and volume of tragedy. The line, "Please drink responsibly" has been an even bigger "failed tragically," but nobody's advocating "magazine limits" for alcoholic beverages. Nobody's advocating that a first-offense DUI case should get 25-to-life, although I personally think that a person who drinks and drives is every bit as negligent as this father who left his guns laying around.
Nobody anticipates dire consequences resulting from their irresponsibility. That's the very difference between negligence and intention.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 21, 2018 - 06:24am PT
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I think it has been unfortunately demonstrated that the current "use control," which is gun safes, and proper gun training, and instilling responsibility, has failed tragically.
Gun safes and proper training are much more popular now than thirty years ago. Check the classifieds in American Rifleman going back to see for yourself. Over those thirty years, the homicide rate has dropped by half.
Doesn't sound like a tragic failure to me, whether one caused the other, or not.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 06:28am PT
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A 17 year old who decided to murder people who had offended him is a man, not a boy. He should have been summarily executed on the spot, as a man.
He stole weapons from someone and used them for murder. His intent was murder and suicide. He planned his murders well in advance.
Assigning blame to the father for what this man did puzzles me.
You're never going to stop a man with murderous and suicidal intent with locks. Locks and safes are great for keeping accidents at bay with little kids or maybe to slow down burglars.
I can cut any typical gunsafe into pieces in less than 15 minutes with a $40 angle grinder and a bag of cutoff wheels. They're all sheetmetal on the sides.
So lay blame with the man. Unfortunately the victims families will be paying to keep this maggot alive for the next 30 years...
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 21, 2018 - 07:59am PT
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Wow, Tut, what a wonderful fellow you are. Anyway, some stuff from the study I posted which addresses specifically the kind of attacks we're seeing in schools, etc.--the crazy mass killings that get the most press as opposed to the less dramatic but far more numerous onezies and twozies that bathe our big cities in blood. Remember, NO ONE here is arguing that these deaths of any sort are okay. I'm just trying to bring in some data to put the discussion in context. It appears nuance is lost to you, not to mention good manners. Momma not learn you well?
Anyway, some shizzle:
"The CPRC has also collected data on the worst mass public shootings, those cases where at least 15 people were killed in the attack.
There were 16 cases where at least 15 people were killed. Out of those cases, four were in the United States, two in Germany, France, and the United Kingdom.
But the U.S. has a population four times greater than Germany’s and five times the U.K.’s, so on a per-capita basis the U.S. ranks low in comparison — actually, those two countries would have had a frequency of attacks 1.96 (Germany) and 2.46 (UK) times higher."
I found this amazing. We are saturated in news coverage of each incident, and they are terrible, but we don't see what's going on in different countries. It's worth repeating what Madbolter said, that gun deaths are down even as the number of guns owned has gone up.
Re. "smart guns": Yeah, the last thing you want is the gun NOT to go off when you really need it. Yikes.
BAd
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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^^^ If I ever necessarily and legally pull the trigger, my gun had better say "BANG," not, "Rebooting to install your Windows updates. Please don't power off your gun."
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 21, 2018 - 08:59am PT
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Having that clown Oliver North as president speaks to the culture of the NRA.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 21, 2018 - 09:13am PT
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Kingtut
Thank you for the clarification. Bad climber has presented biased gun nut statistics.
Let's look at 2010:
Let's get the other years.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 21, 2018 - 09:46am PT
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Tut: Sigh.
I give up. Your venom is pretty shocking, and you should know that there's no justification for it. Others here, on both "sides" should call you out for it.
If I were the "Rambo" type you suggest, I'd be responding differently than I am now.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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May 21, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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He stole weapons from someone and used them for murder
I am not sure that "stole" is the correct interpretation of what he did to get the guns. They were his father's weapons, so either the kid had easy access to them (they were laying around, or they were in a safe, and he knew the combo).
If the latter, the father is culpable, and should be charged.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 21, 2018 - 10:34am PT
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.....and anyone with such a dependence on guns is not rational.
So let me guess.... soldiers, police, security guards, fbi, cia... who are all homo sapiens, are somehow 'special'?
Do tell.
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