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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jan 14, 2018 - 09:14am PT
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I don't see politicians giving a flying F about allowing Mt. Bikes and can't see this becoming legilslation.. Not enough bribes involved..
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
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I'm sorry that this has devolved into personal attacks.
Mmm, that's rich!
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
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Bikers want what Bikers want and don't give AF.
Yeah, because bikers just looove washed out trails. I also heard they're rapists and murderers.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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rottingjohnny, Much like any public resource user, there are good and bad apples. Once I posted on a mtbike list about how dirt bikers had torn up a popular trail in the PNW, creating ruts. A brave soul spoke up and mentioned the trails were dual use and that most dirt bikers have better throttle control as not to rooster tail the straights.
I was also a part of a voluntary trail crew which worked alongside equestrians to improve a multi-use trail. Everybody put some sweat in and the trail was improved for everyone. That kind of thing is probably highly illegal in wilderness, however.
I don't dirt bike, but I think it's crummy how trails which were originally created and maintained by dirt bikers in Moab are now off limits to dirt bikers. Kinda goes against the idea of appropriation IMO (in the Lockean Labor-theory-of-property sense).
I think all groups have their share of yahoos that need a beating, and that it's all too easy to vilify a group based on some bad actors.
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GuapoVino
climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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Motorized wheel chairs are already allowed everywhere you're allowed to hike.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 10:11pm PT
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While I haven't made a study of it, it seems ridic on the face to say a bike on a meadow has no more impact than a person walking on it.
Sounds like pure speculation to me, plus a fatbike is going to reduce that "PSI" (however relevant that is).
Most mtbike trail damage comes from newbs/boobs who don't know how to take corners or control their speed while going down a steep embankment usually on a blind corner. There are many ways to mitigate that just like how trails in the Sierras are designed to mitigate mule damage. For that matter, any trail designed for mules ought to handle mtbikes just fine.
At least the discussion is being less dogmatic and talking about actual trail use issues as opposed to digging one's heels for the sake of anti-bike-Gods.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 10:13pm PT
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Mike, that video makes me wonder how cool it would be to cycle into the Domeland wilderness (which climbers used to drive into). Damn thing is almost impenetrable for climbing now except as a multi-day siege.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 03:49am PT
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Dingus: I would counter, why are either the mountain biker or hiker off trail through a meadow? That’s one of the biggest issues with the anti-bike argument. They presume off tails use as a given, I don’t agree at all.
The PSI of human per wiki is 8psi. Pneumatic tires psi is roughly the psi of the tire. So the answer is it depends. As mentioned above tire width also plays a roll in the distribution of the rider / bike weight.
The other factor is the use of a generic Meadow as the basis of assessment of “damage”. What does that mean, soft and wet? Relatively dry compact ground? It all depends, but once again I would go back to if it’s on a trail, studies show the hiker will displace more dirt.
Now if you want to talk damage to the grass or vegetation, the human foot is the larger footprint which helps for psi but actually creates more damage to flora.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Jan 15, 2018 - 11:01am PT
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not advocating anything, just amazed to be here in this time and place. less bulk in the [Click to View YouTube Video]cargo hold than a folding bike? well i guess there's a duffle full of protective gear to consider
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
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Ken, can you ride a bike? Would you like to learn about mountain bikes and people who ride them? How tall are you?
Mike, that is a gracious offer. I physically can no longer bike, but lived in Davis for >10 years, so bikes were a daily part of my life. I did my share of Double Centuries, back in the day.
I have worked trails outside of wilderness with Mtn Bikers. I have attended IMBA trail workshops. I agree that for the most part, the people who are involved in these activities are as nice as you'll meet. I, like DMT, would not disparage those who choose Mtn Biking as a sport...for the most part.
PS: If you'd rather not ride a bike, you are still welcome to meet the group and see what MTBers are about. You'll never meet a nicer bunch. Besides me, of course.
And then there is Apple, who totally destroys the premise of your argument. Looking at his list of posts, he has used this identity since 2008 for one purpose, attacking people. So he is not only a nasty sh*t, he is so ashamed of himself, he won't post under his own usual handle.
Says it all.......
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:35pm PT
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Another reason why the discussion of bikes in the wilderness should be focused on a case-by-case basis is that land/terrain/climate vary so greatly across the country. And who better to determine what would work than the local land managers and local users of that land.
Case in point- I rode my mountain bike yesterday at my local area which is Henry Coe State Park. The park allows day and overnight hiking, biking, and equestrian use of the trails. It is a huge park that some consider defacto wilderness because of the remote nature of the trails. The problem for many of the trails in Coe is not over-use but under-use, rather some of the trails would disappear without use and maintenance by local volunteers. The state of CA spends very little on trail maintenance on named and mapped trails in Coe Park (that is another story...), but without mountain bikers using and working on trails, nature would take them back.
Here is a picture of a legit mapped trail that leads to a spectacular series of waterfalls near the center of the park:
There is no "damage" from horses, shoes, or tires. This trail almost disappears each spring with new growth, but just enough use keeps the trail there. Maybe around 100 users each year visit these falls, mostly mountain bikers since it's a 24 mile round trip with 5,000' of elevation gain. For this trail, bikes make sense. Without bikes- and the the biking community volunteer hours working on trail maintenance-the trail would go away and the few hikers/backpackers that brave the long journey would have serious bushwhack trying to reach this area.
Mother nature is protected by human nature. Quite simply there are few people willing or able to hike or bike the 24 miles/+5K feet to get to these falls. Human nature has most of us comfortably positioned behind a desk or a couch...
If the conditions are right, certain wilderness areas can handle bike use just fine. Case-by-case.
Here are some shots of the Pacheco Falls to entice DMT to make the journey (by bike or by foot...?) and give us another great trip report.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Formerly TMJesse
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Jan 29, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
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You'd likely never know the difference. You've fallen for the notion that "wilderness" is something physical, like your mt. bike. Not so.
What's so off-base here is the focus on impacts to the natural environment. Ruts, erosion, dust, etc. It's the human environment that's at stake. I once went on a summit register replacement trek in Yosemite in the early 90's. The others brought a lightweight Sony Walkman with speakers to play their favorite tunes at 11,000 feet; it was disgusting. So would be bicycles.
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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2018 - 09:52am PT
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it was disgusting. So would be bicycles.
You forgot:
Ugh, *spit* pootoey! F*#king bicycles, they make me SICK! I want to VOMIT! Nothing but bicycles at summit registers now. In my day..
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jan 30, 2018 - 10:15am PT
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Sorry, fellows, I still like the idea of there being a few places where a person can go for a hike or backpack without wondering if a bike is about to come flying around that next corner.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jan 30, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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There could be some places where mtn bike impact would be minimal.
However around here in Southern California, where most trails are highly erosive, even in non-wilderness, mtn bikes cause a lot of erosion.
On any downhill, a lot of bikes skid. A lot. Large amounts of dirt moved.
Most trails are not well maintained. That is a given unless there were enough user fees to have paid maintenance.
On any slope, a trough forms down the middle. Bikes slide down the sides of the trough and tend to follow the bottom, making it deepen faster, leading to more erosion when it rains. Many hikers step on the sides of the trough, not on the bottom, so each user does not leave behind such a continuous erosive line.
As far as bikers sticking to the trails and not going off-trail like some hikers: both groups sometimes make entire new illegal trails, usually not well engineered.
Bikers also cover several times as much distance as hikers, so even if the impact per user-mile were the same (which it's not) the total impact is proportional to the number of miles.
I like mountain biking myself, but I also know that bikers disturb other users.
Many bikers are going fast enough that their eyes are almost always focused entirely on the trail. So they really aren't experiencing the environment quite as much as a hiker.
To reduce conflicts, some areas with lots of mtn biking have some separate trails for hiking, where you can only go uphill on a bike, not downhill. However more trails would not likely be approved in wilderness.
Comparisons to horses are mostly irrelevant because there are 100 times as many bikers as horses.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Jan 30, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
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If you've seen what a horse/mule pack train does to a trail, you won't say it's irrelevant. Biking in the wilderness doesn't cause anything like that devastation.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Certainly there are some areas where MTB is banned that it should be allowed. (Everyone agreed)
Let us know!