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WBraun
climber
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Hilarious, “If that isn't full-on proof for lack of intelligent design...”
This is decided on a supertopo thread? That is full on proof there is no intelligence here!
Therefore since no one has any intelligence here they decide there is no intelligent design!
LOL!!!! Just as I thought all along ........
Watch out my friends, we will see who really understands logic and science in the end, Jody or the skeptics here on Supertopo.
Forest said: Your flat statement that it's nonsense doesn't really convey much in the way of humility or allowing that other people might believe differently.
Yes Forest you are correct, it does look like that, unfortunately only small snippets are being revealed here and there which gives one that impression. The whole picture would surely be impossible to convey here on a forum.
Thus like they said in the beginning of these huge God related – skeptic threads here, it’s almost a futile attempt that ends up with very little being learned.
Best regards, Werner
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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perhaps we ought to be debating the likelyhood of the factual existence of the "god" worshiped in evangelical christianity, vs all other schools of religious thought or spiritual practice, rather than the factual existence of the principles put forth in the theory of evolution vs. all other possible creation myths or whatever else might be out there.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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matt you'reprobably right, but I'll pigheadedly persevere because I'm in the mood.
someone wants to see new organs evolve to believe in evolution. dude. that's like saying you want to see granite turn into gneiss before you believe in metamorphic rock. or you want to see the grand canyon formed before you believe in erosion (it's not good enough for you to spray a hose on dirt in your back yard). we just don't live that long.
Show me some objective evidence that contradicts evolution (I'm not talking "cast doubt because of lack of evidence" - I'm talking real evidence that specifically contradicts the framework of genetic variation through several means, with resultant differences in ability to produce offspring in a given environment, which directly modifies the genes represented in a population over subsequent generations).
Here, let's make it a math problem. The rate of natural genetic mutation in humans 10^-5 (1 in 100,000). This means that in every generation, there is a natural f*#kup in one gene out of every 100,000. This f*#kup might turn out to be good and help the critter that has it, or it might be lethal and kill it, or it might suck but the critter lives because it has a backup copy of the good gene (see, even basic life encoding believes in redundancy). So if we assume that 1% genetic change is enough to result in a truly different species (say the difference between humans and chimps), then it would take at MINIMUM 1000 generations of mutations in the right random combination with similarly timed isolation of two population segments with different environmental factors in each. Accounting for the fact that many mutations would have an inconsequential affect on an invidividual's ability to reproduce, and some would be bad and just strip that individual or its potential offspring out of the picture, we're talking a significant multiplier on top of the 1000 generations to see a profound change.
I acknowledge this is long winded. But some people who want to see organs evolve in front of their eyes need to experience some wind. Speaking of wind, pull up a chair in yosemite and watch the wind erode the granite.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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I haven't paid any attention to this thread but seeing that it now includes 207 posts I'm curious...has anyone involved in this discussion actually changed their mind based on what has been discussed?
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dirtbag
climber
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Those who deny that life on Earth has evolved, or claim that it is not a fact, really have a poor understanding of the overwhelming evidence that exists supporting evolution, or choose to ignore it.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Well, then sign me up as one with a poor understanding. I've rarely heard any authority on the subject refer to it as a fact. That makes about as much sense as someone calling the theory of relativity a fact (which I guess a few people have,but still.)
It seems to describe what we can observe, but it's certainly not a proven fact. It's highly likely that it will remain a theory in progress for a very long time to come.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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sketch: "Highly probable hypothesis - Yes, Absolute fact - No"
Probably the most significant insight I had after going through college (3 yrs in Electrical Engineering, finished in Ecology, Behavior, and Evolution), was a different understanding of cumulative human knowledge.
Growing up I learned all these packaged facts and truisms from textbooks, and just believed them as being true. What I learned in reading lots of scientific journals is that there are not a lot of neatly packaged "absolute facts". Most experimentally derived knowledge consists of probabilities and statistically significant differences in observations between two or more study groups. The more you learn about a subject the more you find the exceptions and variations that increase your understanding, but it makes it more tough to explain to someone who is not immersed in it. So we boil down the messy reality and make these oversimplified "facts" so others can more easily grasp them.
That being said, I think there are no "absolute facts". We can asymptotically approach absolute facts (to the point where the distinction is trivial and academic), but space always remains for exceptions of which we are not aware, that hints at a more complex map to more accurately capture reality. Non-logical people (or worse yet, logical people trying to exploit non-logical people) try to exploit this property as "proof" that science is wrong. To be clear, I'm not making any statements about God or religion here. As far as I'm concerned that's a separate topic. I don't need to diss religion to validate science.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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even that "3 building blocks of matter" breaks down... the more you learn the more you realize you don't know
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I just went back and read the beginning of this thread again. I guess I was bored for a while and got sucked back into this debate, but it is funny how it just keeps going in circles.
How funny are our lives that we spend our time rehashing the same stuff! Or just the players keep cycling through having the same conversations.
I reassert my bordeom with talk of religion, evolution, and politics. Bring on the midget fisting, consumption and molestation of endangered animals
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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One argument against evolution is there are no "missing link" fossils. But if you have paid any attention to paleontology over the last two decades, you will find actual examples. The biggest of which I am aware.... 20 or 30 years ago, there was a 'hypothesis' that modern birds evolved from dinosaurs. This hypothesis was supported at the time by a very few examples of fossils of a species known as Archteroptrix (not sure of the spelling here -- pardon my lack of 'absolute fact'). Many evolutionists doubted the hypothesis due to lack of evidence, however over the last two decades MANY fossils have been unearthed (mostly from fossil beds in China but elsewhere also) that show distinct characteristics of BOTH small dinosaurs and modern birds. Now it is widely accepted (by evolutionist) that modern birds DID evolve from small dinosaurs and these 'missing link' fossils are the evidence supporting this hypothesis. Note that I said 'hypothesis' -- absolute fact, well no.... for that you will have to talk to God. If you have no direct phone line to God, you may be able to get absolute fact second hand from some fundamentalist.
As for any who want me to show you specific examples of these missing links fossils, you can do the research as easily as I can so don't waste my time -- I'm not making this stuff up. Show me an example of specific evidence supporting intelligent design -- not some vague generality like "complexity". Show me a SPECIFIC example.
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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Hey Jody, and any other intelligent designers:
Early in this thread, Jody asked why, if evolution is the way things went down, is everything decaying?
What's "intelligent" about that "design?" If there is a master-mind plan, or design, wouldn't everything be getting better?
Why is Jody contradicting himself?
Why won't he take a logic course so he can have a real debate?
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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imagine having to teach evolution to 6th graders!
i truly feel sorry for teachers in Kansas.
here's my take with those, like Jody, that want to argue (like a mad dog chasin' his tail)!
HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD DIDN'T CREATE EVOLUTION?
...again, what is wrong with furthering our knowledge?
rewrite the history books for us! tell us how it really is!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dank wrote: "HOW DO YOU KNOW GOD DIDN'T CREATE EVOLUTION?"
Great point. But few folks understand "creation" as anything but a materialstic event, like creating a car. Biological entities don't operate like this, they change through a PROCESS--sometimes all at once, but preceeded by many crucial events. I also sense it's true that if God created the process, the creation is on-going, rather than something that happened once and was done with.
I think the whole shebang in a divinely influenced process, with no starting point and no end.
JL
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Blight
Social climber
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"people who want to see organs evolve in front of their eyes need to experience some wind"
Thanks, but I'm not in the mood for a blow job... heh heh.
Just kidding.
Doesn't it seem to you that so much of what you've posted dances around that exact point? Evolutionists believe that at some point, animals must have evolved new organs to progress from unicellular organisms to where we are today. I'm just asking you to show that happening.
You can run away and do maths problems, or busy yourself with westerns and northerns that show the way transcription works, or talk until you're blue in the face about how children look compared to their parents. But none of those things addresses the simple point:
Why won't or can't you show the mechanism you believe in working?
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dirtbag
climber
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Look at the fossil record.
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dirtbag
climber
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No, it's there. Soft tissues don't preserve well but skeletons sometimes do.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I just got off the phone with Darwin. (making a lot of calls since this new technology was discovered)
He's on God's science inspiration committee. That's the divine office in charge of bestowing the inspiration for advances in science into the minds of great thinkers so that the church can burn them at the stake (no free lunch suckers!) Actually, headquarter now admits that the earth isn't flat but denies that it's their fault or that they told us it was.
Anyway, Darwin says the boss is a bit sorry she didn't go into more detail during the creation paragraph in the Bible, but thought the Earth folks were just too stupid to understand the real divine technology at the time, so she told it like a fairy tale.
I asked Darwin..."Really?! Why doesn't she set the record straight?"
He said "She really loves reading Internet flame wars about evolution! Besides, none of her other kids want to visit Earth anymore."
;^]
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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*Sigh* Sketch, shame on me for jumping into this discussion without having the time to explain everything, but really, you should take a biology or evolutionary biology class.
Oh wait, the stupid Bible thumpers won't let kids learn about evolution because it is Satan's work. Never mind.
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dirtbag
climber
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Third grade understanding of biology is so third grade. They're the ones trying to keep kids from learning about science, not me.
And frankly, their arguments for watering down science are...stoopid!
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Why won't or can't you show the mechanism you believe in working?
This questions has been answered several times in this thread alone. Maybe you could spend the several million years it takes for a change like this to occur looking back over the thread. Oh, what's that you say? People don't live that long? Ding ding ding!!
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