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John M
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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It helps to let go of the notion that the bible is one book. And that is is the inerrant word of God. It is a collection of teachings. Some of which are false. There is Truth in the bible and so it is useful. My quote is but one example of how teachings are twisted. Many versions of the bible replace the word awe with the word fear. They say that fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. Then they try to get around it by explaining fear. But this is an insidious method of destruction. God has no desire to teach fear or have anyone fear Him/Her. When one has a true experience of God, then one finds awe. If you lack awe of God, then you have not had a true experience of God. What one should fear is evil/anti god because evil/anti god is the lack of Love. Not human love with all of its foibles. But deep, endless, compassionate Love.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 09:46am PT
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Dogs can hear the vibrations created by earthquakes before they are detected by other means
I guess you have zero grasp on any science
Can't say I have ever heard a vibration... though I understand what you mean. If it's that simple- then why have we not been able to produce a reliable way of detecting earthquakes? Are we not smarter than dogs?
Or is it that humans have a limited perception of what is going on? I think both religious and scientific people make the same egotistical mistake of looking to a book as the source of all answers
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 29, 2017 - 09:52am PT
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The Trouble with Pipples
Doug God sat down at the table with Wendy God and Rhianna God and sighed. "What's the matter?" Rihanna God said.
"I googled the word 'spirit' last night and all I got was a wiki reference for 'spiritualism;' practice whereby 'people' assign the magical properties of an unseen self to themselves and those around them. It also made mention that many people believe in a mythical hierarchy of beings from an unseen spirit world " said Doug God.
Wendy God replied, "I've heard of spirits too, but what are these 'people' beings you speak of?"
"Nah, I'm not buying that there ever were such things as people," Rihanna God interjected, "it's obvious to me that some god way back when made that stuff up just to entertain baby gods at bedtime, or maybe, they just had way too much time on their hands."
-bushman
05/29/2017
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 29, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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Can't say I have ever heard a vibration
everything you hear is a vibration, simple science, nothing magical
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 29, 2017 - 10:10am PT
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sycorax: Can we please get the discussion back on track to physics? Jesus Christ!
why waste the time?
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John M
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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she was making a joke Ed..
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 29, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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Can we please get the discussion back on track to physics? Jesus Christ!
why waste the time?
she was making a joke Ed..
An excerpt from an early discussion on Creation and the making of man?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 29, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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Cwilmot...all religions are man made
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 29, 2017 - 10:56am PT
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Randisi: MikeL, to say that social events strip people of their humanity is exceedingly odd.
First of all, one has to agree that a big reason people get involved in religion is because it’s a social event. Then we can talk about how that objectification might diminish, obviate, or de-legitimize their views. Some people actually believe everything is about God, that God infuses everything that they are or do. I get it that you don’t see it that way. In this thread, I felt compelled to stand-up for a minority view. I don't see anyone's subjectivity as less than anyone else's. You?
Bob: I don't make long winded responses especially here on ST, I don't think it is that complex and and history has proved my point.
You bet. My background / profession is academic. That too might be of a minority here. (I tend to equate long-winded with "not much to say" rather than word count.) I’d bet that you’ve read books with many words, too. (Heck, that might signal another minority here.)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 29, 2017 - 11:50am PT
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Simply:
We exist in a universe that is inconceivably large with an inconceivable number of opportunities for life, consciousness, mind.
We know with certainty that mind/ consciousness exists on a continuum. Some creatures more some less: even in the human population intelligence seems to vary greatly.
If intelligence exists on a continuum we, as humans, exist on that continuum and can assume with some degree of accuracy an intelligence beyond our own exists in this universe based on our understanding of that intelligence.
And so the question becomes at what point does an intelligence become so far beyond our own that it assumes the quality of what we have defined as deity?
The existence of deity or God or whatever you want to call it doesn't have to exist in a state of magic but rather within the the structure of physics.
That the bible is somehow an "evil book" is plainly ridiculous, as the bible, through metaphor, addresses the nature of existence in a rather accurate way as poetic and not scientific, yet in that biblical explication is remarkable wisdom regarding the human condition.
Religion has, for the most part, put a lid on the kind of human behavior that causes chaos and pain. Of course there are glaring exceptions to that and that's all some here seem to recognize. But in this regard religion and science are similar: one could, by the standard afforded religion on this thread, declare the Theory of Relativity the most evil thing written in the western tradition based on its military consequences.
Where are the open minds around here?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
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We know with certainty that mind/ consciousness exists on a continuum. Some creatures more some less: even in the human population intelligence seems to vary greatly.
If intelligence exists on a continuum we, as humans, exist on that continuum and can assume with some degree of accuracy an intelligence beyond our own exists in this universe based on our understanding of that intelligence. my open mind doesn't accept point 1 and 2
No, consciousness does not exist in a continuum, kill the brain, end the consciousness
please tell us how this works
How does consciousness exist beyond the living?
Does an ant's consciousness exist beyond the body as well?
I haven't seen any sign of consciousness outside a living organism ever.
please elaborate on this continuum, since it seems like pure hopeful speculation
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 29, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
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my open mind doesn't accept point 1 and 2
please tell us how this works
You're a smart guy, think about it.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
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Unanswered questions
= cover up for not having answers
= the answer exposes you as a hypocrite
= the answer relies on "faith", you just need to believe in magic
= says you are not intellectually curious and have a need to repress open mindedness outside the box
= fearing god will punish you for questioning his will
= too brainwashed to know why you believe anything
= etc. etc.
Just like Trump, he refuses to answer any questions because he knows they will just bury him further,
instead we get
"believe me, it will be terrific"
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
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The whole material universe is a living organism of consciousness of individuality and together also as one whole.
Fry is clueless material academic brainwashed fool.
Fry can't even understand basic simple consciousness itself ..........
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 29, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
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The whole material universe is a living organism of consciousness of individuality and together also as one whole. wild speculation
with zero evidence as proof
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 29, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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Unanswered questions
= cover up for not having answers
= the answer exposes you as a hypocrite
= the answer relies on "faith", you just need to believe in magic
= says you are not intellectually curious and have a need to repress open mindedness outside the box
= fearing god will punish you for questioning his will
= too brainwashed to know why you believe anything
= etc. etc.
Just like Trump, he refuses to answer any questions because he knows they will just bury him further,
instead we get
"believe me, it will be terrific"
Good grief! After reading this I think I know who's most similar to Trump on this thread. Your questions just indicated you either didn't understand what I wrote, that understanding clouded by incorrect assumptions, or you didn't really read it at all. Try it again.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 29, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
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"The whole material universe is a living organism of consciousness of individuality and together also as one whole."
Of course you can prove this speculation?
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 29, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
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Look, the question posed is:
"Is religion doing more harm than good these days? (OT)
Which is a complex, multi-layered question if one thinks about it at all. There is enough evidence on both sides to make a persuasive argument. And again, this does not appear to be a question about spirituality, but about religion (not that one person cannot have their own religion based on their spirituality), but the question and OP narrative seemed to be asking more about how organized religion influences humanity's actions and the situations in which we find ourselves. It further seems to invite historical and present comparisons, as well as asking for an assessment of the balance of harm and good resulting from religion. Here, we are going to need to agree that harm is the diminishment of the rights, property, or well-being of an individual or individuals (or please provide a better definition if you have one, and thank you) as well as agree on the good, which would be the positive enhancement of those qualities rather than the diminishment. (I am not trying to open a discussion on harm and good, but hope we have some common lexicon for this discussion, beginning with the question as stated.)
If I am mistaken in the tenor of the question, then please correct me. Otherwise, I am addressing the question as one which takes not only an historical view (the question seems to ask for a comparison between "These Days" and "Those Days") but also examines the present influence of organized religion on the actions and circumstances of humankind, of which I happen to be a member. If I were answering this question from my own perspective, I would rephrase the question to be: Is you religion doing more harm than good these days? But that is not the question, nor is it geographically or doctrine-bounded.
So, a tentative beginning on scoring the harm and good might be . . .
Religion presently doing harm:
Warfare in the name of a doctrine;
Diminishment of some of our human rights in the name of some doctrine;
Absconding with people's productivity under some banner of faith;
Indoctrination that can impede an individual's ability to reason;
Building tax-exempt empires to do more harm.
Religion presently doing good:
Feeding hungry people;
Sheltering and caring for those in need;
Initiatives for peace from some faiths;
Distributing necessities to those in need;
Indoctrination that can encourage a more self-compassionate and self-loving attitude;
Offering alternatives to more oppressive government taxation.
And those are just a few things. If we are going to look at the question as it stands, then are we not considering and weighing the harm and the good religion does for the individual as well as for society?
Or are we mostly concerned with the question as it relates to groups of people?
We were at a cemetery earlier today, honoring veterans and cleaning and decorating their final resting places. While there was sadness and pride, and some tears for those we knew, there was also joy for those who believe that their loved one is now in a better place. As we gathered for prayers, I looked up into one of the tall cottonwoods and noticed a nest with two great horned owl chicks and a parent perched on the branch next to the nest. When I mentioned the owls a bit later, one of the women said she was sure it was a sign from her son, who was an ornithologist and studied owls especially. It was not about religion for her, but about her personal, loving connection with her son. A priest tried to convince her it was a sign from G*d, and she firmly but politely told him that she didn't need G*d to get a message from her son. It isn't always about religion. Sometimes it is about Love. When Love gets separated from any religion, I think we see a lot more harm in the fallout.
I sometimes attend Quaker Meeting for Worship, because I like the absence of priests. But if you ask me about my religion, I'd probably just say I am spiritual, because I do not agree with all things Quaker. I grew up with a mixture of Native American spirituality, Jewish faith, a bit of Catholicism, and then decided to mediate on and follow Lao Tsu when I was 13, but I brought all the rest along with me, because pieces of many practices and writings gives me a discipline and a structure for asking questions of myself.
Frankly, I don't know of any organized religion I would join. But there are a number of practices I find beneficial, such as meditation, reading the Tao, reading the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, following the admonitions of Jesus, and periods of self-examination to steady myself in my spiritual balance.
If you ask me, individually, if religion does or would do me more harm than good, I could not answer: the synthesis of my studies and thinking seem to defy religion as we usually think of it. Yet I have a firm perception of a force, and energy which I call the Mind of G*d, and to which I attribute both the existence of my emotional and intellectual being, as well as the existence of the orderliness of all that is. I marvel at both my individual, interactive systems, as well as at the universal, interactive systems I am able to perceive. If you want to call it Faith, then my faith is based largely on my sense of awe at my own existence and on the elegance I see around me in nature.
enough of my nattering
feralfae
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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May 29, 2017 - 05:14pm PT
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Thanks on a number of levels, feralfae. Cheers and Ciao, lynnie.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 29, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
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Religion is a system with a few positive components, no doubt.
But taken as a whole it is pretty Luddesque** to think highly of it in this
day and age.
**charitable? maybe
It's too bad our species doesn't have the room any longer to further speciate, eh?
One can wonder how that could turn out.
Cheers and ciao.
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