Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
|
Weschrist: "...I never said anything about mass consumption, only wasted void of rock... "
Your wording throughout this thread alone belies exactly that - mass consumption - what else could one possibly infer from "wasted void of rock"? Wasted? Void of rock? Surely there must be a consumption-related demand and product availability problem if such routes suddenly require updated [pro] formulations, [beta] packaging, and POS (Positive Outcome Sales) displays.
Again, I'm an old, misanthropic bastard and the 80% of today's 'climbers' who feel ever more risk-free, pre-established routes are simply a god-given consumer entitlement bordering on a birthright could simply disappear tomorrow. If they did simply vanish the number of climbers today would likely be the same as a percentage of the population as it was in the '70s versus the exponential gain we have that is driven solely by gyms, risk-free sport climbing, and commercialization.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:20pm PT
|
weschrist: "I find it funny to watch people like Mimi twist over their own false interpretations of what I am saying. I like to watch people's bias come out and confront them."
so you're saying you're a troll...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
|
Well I'll be darned. A dunk! Never have seen that before.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
|
Wes, trolling for bias is as disingenuous and moronic as it gets. Why not be man enough to present your ideas and offer solutions without being so immature about it? You have yet to present a consistent position. Save the route, don't preserve the route, blah-blah-blah. You need to get past the FA ownership concept and realize that the community still climbs that way as shown in this thread. You yield to the concept of community but can't get over yourself.
How many years of climbing experience do you have to really contribute to this discussion? Several people on this thread genuinely tried to carry on this debate with you despite your foolish posturing and attitude. Provoking a response out of your elders is pure panty waste BS. Pardon me if I invoke a response out of you.
You're still avoiding most of the questions posed about your futuristic idea to "fix" the inconsiderate past. Where do you draw the line? Let's see your hit list. Why is the B-Y safe? Aren't run out routes solely for ego purposes, whether they're recognized or not, stupid?
You continue to spout about FA's owning the rock. What gives a hoard of inexperienced little pukes like you and frac the right to inflict your mediocrity and lack of committment on our shared resource and legacy?
From everything you've said, you're a made-to-order sportclimber. Why not simply settle into that nice warm and fuzzy corner of alpinism and leave the bold climbs for bold climbers? Climbing really should be enjoyed, not dreaded. But not when it comes to your sorry ass. As Jello and others have said many times, not every climb is for every climber.
You're the one whining on and on about how terribly miserable and scary this traditional climbing can be. Since you obviously can't handle routes done decades ago, maybe you should stick to the plastic arena where you and your pals can play climb and pretend you're on a bold runout. Too bad most gyms aren't tall enough to provide a real experience. At least you can still dream. Kinda like some feeble old person, eh?
Once again, climbing has never been easier or more secure than it is right now. Why do you have to lower the bar even further to make a place for yourself?
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
|
The very very few times this person has had any success it came when he stopped trying to explain what he thought and tried to understand from whence others were coming. It is alright to point out realities. In an earlier post I said when you accept the idea of using other people’s artificial protection in your climbing, you necessarily expose yourself to their idiosyncracies and agendas. This is just a given. When there is a problem you state the problem and let each person search for an answer – on their own. When the heat is too high you point out how big and beautiful is the larger context.
So I would direct those interested to a person I think is a giant. Once there read the matter of fact description of the John Muir Trail and of the Barkley. When truly captured read about the BadWater. When done do your own searching and find the young lady who did the BadWater and outran everyone by two full hours; men, women, mutants, everyone.
Incredibly exciting
http://fjwsys.lanl.gov/bpw/running.html
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
|
jstan, thanks for posting the links. The John Muir Trail? Incredible, truly a giant...
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
|
...The past is no guide to the future. We are going through a phase change...
John,
From liquid to vapor, I hope. What a gas!!!
Curt
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
|
Wow Wes! You're an old dad yourself. Never would have guessed it from your peevish posts. Considering your age and experience, it remains puzzling why you have this sense of entitlement and resentment for history.
You say you don't support mass consumption, but what else could it be at your skill level? You seem to be seeking permission to fine tune climbs. What's stopping you? Do you acknowledge that climbs lose character when more fixed protection is added? Or do they gain something in your mind beyond greater ease of access?
The low impact ethic that came out of the clean climbing movement from the early 1970s was created and supported by the community at large for reasons that are still valid and current. Bolts are eyesores. Keeping them to a minimum is good for everybody, not just climbers.
If you want to do these climbs and your head is shakey, that's entirely your problem, not the FA team's and certainly not the rest of the community.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:28pm PT
|
Weschrist: "I think it is something that should be defined by the community..."
Well, given eighty percent of 'the community' are those same highly risk-averse, entertainment-seeking 'climbers' (and of course their enabling community service reps and developers), I'd personally prefer to see such decisions in the hands of conservative private and public land managers before seeing this crew "managing" our crags. In fact, at this point, I'd go so far as to say if I were a lawyer I be lobbying for explicit 'Trad Preserve' set asides on public lands that specifically prohibited non-anchor fixed pro or fixed pro entirely - even if that meant sacrificing a lot of good routes.
Weschrist: "But some of it is just sh#t and would give plenty of people brilliant experiences if they didn't have to risk life and limb to try it."
This is clearly the real heart of your endless thumping - why not simply come out and say it - 'I think climbing should be safe'? Why all the trappings of indignation and generational entitlement? Just own what is clearly the heart and soul of your argument. And note I'm not putting words in your mouth; they are your words again and again. You just keep choosing phrases that dance around a meaning which is impossible to conceal. It's an entirely disingenuious argument when the true theme and intent keeps beaming through your words regardless. Just spit it out and own it for god's sake - I completely disagree, but it's ok to simply speak your mind.
And the relevant question of experience would be how many FA's have you done and what was the split between ground-up trad and rap bolted sport?
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:55pm PT
|
wes said, You know, when someone comes to an area, which happens to have been put up 20 years ago, and really wants to experience climbing in a beautiful place, only to get shut down because someone with bigger balls (or no kid, both legs, more talent, whatever) happened to climb that chunk of rock before them.
more talent? yeah, god forbid someone may have to work at something, spend some time at it to master it before getting their form of "satisfaction". face it, its not about balls it is about TALENT. a part of moving over stone is the ability to know when it is dangerous and to know better than setting out on something you could risk failure on when that failure involves broken bones or death.
there are climbers on here who know an awful lot more than i do about that, but that is an inherent risk. that risk is dealt with by having the confidence in your skills to climb something safely. what you are saying is f&&& that, let everyone play in the game. the progression of that is obviously to then chip it down to ones technical level. WTF gives you the right to bring something down to your level? if that is ok, then why cant i chip a few holds in it to bring it down to mine. afterall, i am getting older and i can use all the good holds i can muster.
But some of it is just sh#t and would give plenty of people brilliant experiences if they didn't have to risk life and limb to try it.
managing risk is key in climbing. everytime we start up any route there is some risk that we manage. in the old days i tended to manage it by climbing within my abilities. the new wave is to climb outside of them. its all great and i enjoy sport climbing too. but when you have to manage the risk based upon addressing dangerous consequences it becomes a deeper, heavier game. i still dont know why we dont simply manage the risk on mt everest better. say drill the camps inside the mountain, stock the camps with plenty of O2. doesnt sound good does it. unfortunately it is the same logic you are applying to a slightly bigger objective.
the great thing about climbing is that i dont have no stinkin committee tellin me how far apart the bolts are gonna be, whether i need my helmet or whether i can free solo something. now with your ideas it seems like thats what we can look forward to. i suggest you call it something other than rock climbing because it is not to be confused with the sport that interested me and the one that i spent many years reaching my mediocre peak of mastery.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:37am PT
|
I guess what I really don't understand Wes is that this post goes on and on, you are gouding it for some reason.
At some point in your climbing career you have to either accept what is or change it. If there are areas where really eggregious routes were put up then you can go and improve the situation. Sure the FA team might wail, but if you have a better vision and the climbing community recognizes it in some manner, than you just made things better.
If you ask me "Hey Ed, can I put a line up through your line? I think your route is lame" I'm probably not going to have a positive reaction. Demanding that I conceed that you are right isn't going to get us closer to a resolution. If you go out and do it, we might escalate the hostilities by chopping, etc... back and forth until one of our visions persists.
For me, I'd probably just say "whatever, that was my experience and I don't care what happens to the route." Most of the routes are probably not worth going to war over. But there are a few routes which are considered outstanding. You say you are not talking about those routes, but there is really no way to tell what is fashionable and what is not, and of course it all changes with time. Todays horror might be tomorrows test piece. Who knows?
As I said 100 posts or so above, you aren't going to get approval... but then again, no one is stopping you. Go lay your ideas out there to be judged by the climbing community. If there is something worthwhile there, it will be acknowledeged. That is the way it works... that is the only way it works, thankfully.
|
|
Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:25am PT
|
I think "ground up" makes better climbers.
Those that don't "ground up" perfect sequences for "one climb" and never really "learn" to climb. It is makes the feat into an exercise routine.
------------
As for changing/modernizing a route...
I think we lose our chances of getting better when we change difficult climbs in the name of "safety."
If you can't do the route in the original format, you shouldn't do it.
Climbing is one big incredible challenge, it should not be safe. It also should not be changed for any reason except just to replace a rusty bolt. If we change routes, we remove a chance to compete with the original team. We remove the history which we can build upon to make us stronger.
To clarify my point, let me quote from Isaac Newton...
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
(If we remove our giants, how far could we see?)
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:37am PT
|
The modern climber quiz:
People could have brilliant experiences if they didn't have to:"
a) Develop those pasky technical skills
b) Have to use such annoyingly small and difficult holds
c) Climb without protection within easy reach on each move
d) Operate both sphincters in concert at the same time
e) All of the above...
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:44am PT
|
You are correct sir! E it is!
Anastasia, thanks for the bare bones old school breakdown.
The hits keep coming guys. Joe, Ed, and Hawk are right on. You've clipped the bolt of truth.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 01:49am PT
|
We are all nagivating our larger general culture, whether we like it or not, and there are consequences to how we choose to fit in or not.
Climbing is a subculture and within it, many smaller cultures defined by the style of climbing or prevailing local ethics.
Even though we can make general statements of something like the character of something like Yosemite Climbing ethics and culture and how it has evolved, on a more specific level, it gets a lot more complicated, subtle and nuanced.
Quite a few routes have been changed in Yosemite. Maybe with FA approval, and many not. Some have been chopped, even FA routes have been chopped. Some restored. Some retrobolts remain and there are a whole ecosystem of reason why folks are offended, complacent, or oblivious.
Sometimes it depends on who did the FA and who made the changes.
Sometimes it depends on if folks care about the route or not.
Sometimes it depends who how big a pain in the butt it would be to do something about it.
Who knows, sometimes it's a gut feeling.
Take the Nose for instance. Certainly a route that represents Yosemite in general and folks do care about it. It ain't some obscure thing.
Belay bolts were added. Only Taliban types care much cause the route gets tons of traffic, many rescues, and fixed pins and such are more temporary and damage the rock with repeated replacement.
Freeclimbing bolts were added and holds chipped. The Chipped holds are notorious but nobody really knows who to fix that. Freeclimbing bolts are pretty controversial but were probably placed by folks who the community respects so they have remained.
Chicken bolts have been added. God knows why nobody has chopped the bolt behind Texas Flake. Perhaps it's a pain to chop cause it's a hammerless route that folks need to go fast on, or maybe folks have sympathy for the poor average EL Cap climber from country A-Z without much chimney experience who has to do a big giant leadout on an otherwise pretty safe route otherwise. Just speculating there.
Maybe this additional bolting has been tolerated because it's El Cap and aid climbing is somewhat more tolerant of bolting than pure freeclimbing. Ya got me.
Just food for thought.
Another thought. That while Wes might have stimulated some discussion, when folks are dealing with closely held and emotional subjects like this, a more productive discussion might come from a more measured give and take of ideas exploring the potential for consensus and understanding.
Peace
Karl
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 02:27am PT
|
I've mentioned before the fact that surfers overall respect and revere their elders' accomplishments. That's because every surfer coming up had to summon up the exact same goods and skills as their parents and grandparents to surf the same breaks. They also still have that respect because you can't 'bolt' waves in any fashion.
The recent development of tow-in surfing developed for big waves will no doubt now be used on far smaller waves so folks can have 'brilliant experiences' without suffering the challenges and risks of actually getting out and catching a wave themselves or getting themselves out of harms way after a dive. That pretty much creates trad and sport surfing. Still, the waves themselves and many of the risks associated with surfing them will remain unchanged. Every ride is a new and unique wave and in some ways it's too bad rock can't similarly cleanse and replinish itself after every climb.
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:45am PT
|
then of course there is fracture, who didnt need all the advances of sticky rubber, training regimens, plastic holds, sport climbing and all the modern day gear evolutions. he is just better and would have been climbing 5.13 50 years ago. or at least that is what he comes across as saying.
5.13 was first climbed (by John Gill) about 50 years ago.
Of course I'm no John Gill. (But I suspect you're one of those who like to pretend that 5.13 didn't come along until the late 70's.)
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:47am PT
|
That demographic has now been turned on its head; fully 80-85% of today's climbers wouldn't be tomorrow if bolts evaporated tonight.
Right. (Mimi, read that. "Adventure" is not a primary reason people climb, anymore.)
|
|
fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:48am PT
|
Bolts are eyesores.
Bolts are aesthetic and beautiful.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:52am PT
|
You want "ground up"? Try that roadside crag just west of Cheyenne Wyoming on Hwy 80. I gaurantee you'll feel pretty "ground up" when you're done there...
edit-
Holy Hannah, did you just say bolts are beautiful? WTF, WTF, SERIOUSLY WTF???
If you think they are such a beauty mark, let me install one on your forehead.
Bolts are the devil!
Any body got Ken Nichol's address, I'm going to go shovel his driveway for free the next time it snows.
85% of climbers wouldn't climb if there were no bolts? Halleluja! There it is, the answer to all my prayers, all wrapped up in a neat little package. I Knew Mimi was a prophet!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!