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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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I grew up with a bb gun, pellet gun, 22, 270 in youth in that order - and through friends a couple of shotguns in a rural area in the Sierra. My heroes on tv included Daniel Boone.
Lots and lots of hunting of smaller creatures at that time. Though it's been 25 plus years now that I gave that up for philosophical reasons. Skunks included (ref: Escopeta).
I think it was my edu in life sciences mostly - over many years - that led to the change.
I could still appreciate a Daniel Boone show or a How the West was Won show though. Don't you love the contrast with Star Trek?
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(1) For charcoal substitute a gun. (2) For sulfur, substitute radical fundamentalist Islam. (3) For potassium nitrate substitute a disaffected, frustrated young male willing to die for a perceived cause. Stir. The result is a mixture as explosive as black powder that awaits something of an ignition agent.
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
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Yeah, that's the thing, we all have our own unique experience of the Great American Gun Culture. My dad had LEO friends, who brought all kinds of heat to their remote rural summer weekend family get togethers. Thousands of target rounds, literally from muskets to uzis, basically every testosterone-pumped 12 year old's dream come true. Never hunted though.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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By your own admission, its highly questionable if anyone had been saved by making them illegal, so I would ask you the rhetorical what would be the point of outlawing them? Especially since many people use them for protection, hunting, and to support their 2nd Amendment rights (which has nothing to do with hunting to be clear). Same logic applies to virtually all small arms our military has access to.
I can tell you, as someone who has done a considerable amount of hunting, I have never encountered someone hunting with an AR-15. Perhaps this type of hunting is something new that I'm unaware of. An AR-15 is a weapon designed for either protection or aggression with regard to other humans. As a means of aggression it is remarkably effective. In the wrong hands it can create mayhem. This has nothing to do with second amendment rights and everything to do with simple facts and logic. I can protect my home with a shotgun. You are presently not allowed to own a variety of weapons that are deemed too dangerous for the public and that is as it should be. I would simply add the AR-15 to that list.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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Jody didn't post to get an argument, he just posted the "truth".....(homosexual acts are a sin and so is heterosexual sex before marriage.....geez, who here would want to argue with that?
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
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Interesting story. Video below is of a Muslim guest speaker at Orlando Mosque not long ago. Calling for death to gays.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
The culture clash continues.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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HFCS-
I withdrew my +1 after you edited and appended your post. I agreed with the "drowning in BS" statement.
I grew up in a household where firearms were regarded as a useful tool. They are absolutely necessary where I live; skunks (mostly rabid, these days), raccoons, but most of all the rattlesnake population needs control.
I have a healthy respect for the capabilities as well as the limitations of firearms, having been to "school" at Ft. Carson, Colorado and having to lug one around everywhere for 8 weeks as well as firing over 500 rounds of .30-'06 from an M1 Garand. I can shoot everything in the U.S. arsenal, up to and including a .50 caliber Browning M-2.
I no longer go hunting, not for ethical reasons, but simply no longer get any thrill from doing so. Varmints? Sure. I don't need my dog bitten by a rabid animal--particularly skunks. I don't need to be bitten by a rattlesnake, either. So---bang, bang. Dead skunk, dead rattler.
If I personally were to happen on a massacre in progress, by some idiot screaming Allah Akbar, I wouldn't be stopping to ask the sexual orientation of the victims before I simply blew his head off with a .357 magnum I carry (legally). Then, as my additional military training took over, begin rendering First Aid to any victims, also without asking sexual orientation. I was trained initially as a combat aidman, and still retain most of the skill set for dealing with massive trauma.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:24pm PT
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the ironic thing about the whole gun debate is that every [saneish] person thinks there should be a line...
[i'm assuming that] nobody on this thread would advocate for freedom to own nukes, or freedom to own armed and firing modern tanks, but yet the knickers get twisted when it comes to even the tiniest of regulations regarding hand guns and rifles.
the whole situation would be comical if it wasn't so absurdly consequential... the u.s. moved so far beyond having well-regulated militias 75ish years ago and has been an empire replete with standing armies ever since then.
yet there is an idea that guns [especially assault rifles] are some kind of a defence against a government [backed by a military industrial complex] overrunning it's bounds... ummm... hate to break it to a few of you folks, that bridge got crossed many moons ago... hanging onto an ar-15 is kind of like a sikh wearing a kirpan: it's representative of a time long since gone by, and at this point is more of a fetish than an actual means of collective self-defence.
because i'm sure those in the military industrial complex laugh robustly: "yeah, sure keep the ar-15s... as long as we get the nukes, the subs, the aircraft carriers and the tomohawk miissles..."
don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating outright banning... there's a whole 'nother can of likely wasted time/money/energy down that completely control based road... just blows me away that discussing a well regulated militia approach [something along the lines of the swiss approach for example] to weapons designed primarily for the killing of other humans creates such an irrational emotional response in so many.
oh well...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:25pm PT
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Thanks for the reply, bdc.
I can see your point of view.
(FWIW, i did append BEFORE I saw your post.)
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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Successful use of a gun in self-defense is a nice idea, but it is very rare, compared to uses that cause harm. Even if you are like BKDCLMER, with all that training and experience, you could still miss and kill an extra person instead of saving lives. If you add up all the suicides, murders, deaths & injuries from accidental discharge, the number of successful self-defense incidents is small by comparison.
During the Civil War, a good, experience musket loading rebel soldier could, at most, get off three shots per minute. After 30-40 yards, there is little possibility of doing much damage. Guns like that would be better for us all.
In Australia, after a mass shooting, they had a Country-wide gun turn in, and gun deaths dropped off dramatically.
I have spent time in a homestead area, where, years ago, one person had a shotgun. That seemed appropriate. He had to shoot an occasional marauding bear.
In the rural areas, you need guns for varmits, but in the City, the vast majority of law experts say that the fewer guns in the hands of the citizenry, the better.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:03pm PT
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John M (whoever you are) your posts could be construed as physically threatening....better lighten up. It's supposed to be a discussion forum. You talk about people hiding behind avatars....is M your last name?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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A respectful moment of silence at the start of the Copa America match between Mexico and Venezuela.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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nah000 writes:
"[i'm assuming that] nobody on this thread would advocate for freedom to own nukes, or freedom to own armed and firing modern tanks, but yet the knickers get twisted when it comes to even the tiniest of regulations regarding hand guns and rifles."
You're conflating crew served weapons with individual arms. Miltia members were expected to show up with their own gear.
"yet there is an idea that guns [especially assault rifles] are some kind of a defence against a government [backed by a military industrial complex] overrunning it's bounds... ummm... hate to break it to a few of you folks, that bridge got crossed many moons ago... hanging onto an ar-15 is kind of like a sikh wearing a kirpan: it's representative of a time long since gone by, and at this point is more of a fetish than an actual means of collective self-defence."
A bunch of illiterate cavemen in Afghanistan made a damn good showing, wielding small arms. They tossed three consecutive Superpowers out on their asses. Don't ever underestimate the determined man with a rifle.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
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A Howitzer in every driveway!!
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:18pm PT
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A bunch of illiterate cavemen in Afghanistan made a damn good showing, wielding small arms.
They tossed three consecutive Superpowers out on their asses.
USA is still there protecting their illegal criminal heroin enterprise to run their illegal proxy black ops to take over the world.
All while you dumb azz stupid brainwashed hypocrite politards talk sh!t about everything you are so clueless about.
Stupid loon forum tards .....
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:25pm PT
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Go clean your AR-15 and bring it to happy hour.
I happen to agree with monolith,cintune and the rest that feel we do not need a weapon like that sold to anyone.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
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A bunch of illiterate cavemen in Afghanistan made a damn good showing, wielding small arms. They tossed three consecutive Superpowers out on their asses. Don't ever underestimate the determined man with a rifle.
Yeah, I wonder why no one wants to invade the USA? Oh, that's right. Its the tanks.
And Paul R. I would be willing to say that more animals are taken with AR-15 platform rifles than any other rifle, probably times 10. Owning mostly to animal damage control for hogs, prairie dogs, jacks, coyotes and foxes.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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Idaho would be a good place ......to hide.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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Attacks involving Muslims, presumably terrorist inspired or linked:
Fort Hood, 2009
Boston, 2013
San Bernadino, 2015
Orlando, 2016
Prevented attacks:
Stats are not publicized
Is this a complete list.
911?
Bill Stein, former military officer / SF Augmentee
37.1k Views • Bill has 180+ answers in Guns and Firearms
Since the cycle time of the weapon is faster than the speed at which you can pull the trigger, the answer is that it can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.
Technically, the AR-15 fires 800 rounds a minute (source: Wikipedia), which is 13.3 rounds per second. This is for the full-auto version. We know that fanning your index finger is going to be much slower than that, so saying 180 rounds per minute is actually a very, very reasonable number. Except that you'd never get there, because you can only fire 30 (or 10 in Colorado) rounds from a standard magazine.
In Air Force Security Forces duties protecting stateside assets, I would routinely carry four magazines (three in a belt pouch and one in the weapon) for a total of 120 rounds.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jun 13, 2016 - 05:58pm PT
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Earlier some one posted the two cartoons below...Unfortunately they are a bit deceptive. I've attached them below so that they can be dissected a bit.
Unfortunately, far too often policy organizations and people, tend to spin the numbers and really aren't interested in looking at the facts objectively. Sadly this appears to be the case here.
Lets take a look at what they've given us. First note that the first cartoon shows that there are ~90 "civilian" guns per 100 people. If true that seems a bit shocking but that doesn't get at the heart of the question. It would be far more revealing to look at the number of gun owners per 100 people in the US. Similarly when looking at the homicide rate it would be more enlightening to know the number of individuals per 100000 committing homicides. Next one could look look at the distribution of the number of subjects they killed.
Also from this chart it makes me feel very unsafe visiting Israel, right?
sigh...
EDIT: FYI I don't have a stance on gun control since I have not studied the problem scientifically. I've got no bias just wanted to point out that we should all be skeptical of what is put out there on all sides.
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