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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 29, 2015 - 09:51am PT
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Thanks for the thread and your thoughts!
A couple friends Facebook posts have helped me understand what I think about it better.
One friend posted a quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg: "if the world were populated by people who see it as it is, and not as it should be, how would civilization progress?" For me, it's a very powerful observation about humans and our human belief creation processes - that it's not always advantageous for us (we don't always "progress") when we see the world (reality) the way that it is. There's a powerful advantage to seeing "the world" in a way that doesn't match reality. For me, that means that our belief creation processes aren't solely dependent on forming "true" beliefs - that the value of our beliefs is in the advantage that they confer to us in the form of "progress" - not solely in their truth value of how well they match reality (how well we "see it as it is").
Another friend posted, about people changing profile pictures to be covered by a rainbow hue: "is it just me, or does everyone look better (happier, healthier, more attractive) with the rainbow hue?" I thought that was a great example of what Ginsburg said. In order to answer the question, I need to think of those qualities as having a factual quantity more or less - eg we could measure a persons health or happiness to determine a factual quantity, like we can measure their mass or gender or skin melanin content. Then it's either true that people are happier and healthier when they're associated with an inclusive perspective on marriage equality, or it's not.
But the belief that my friend and I and people of our ilk end up forming about it ("people are happier/healthier when associated with a progressive perspective on marriage equality") is not dependent on whether or not that belief is factually true. We just (I would say "arbitrarily") form that belief in order to support our belief that our value in marriage equality is righter or gooder or more the way the world "should be" than the alternative.
So for me, I told my friend no it's not just her - we all form beliefs according to their advantage to us ( individually and collectively) regardless of whether or not the belief is true. I think that's just how humans work.
The opponents of gay marriage have those same belief formation processes working for them. It works to our (humans') advantage to work together. The advantages of our greater collective vs individual abilities is facilitated by the social/community building/ "moral" behavior originally/historically/societally encouraged by some of their religious beliefs. That advantage has led them to a belief that gay marriage should be illegal as a supportive belief to prop up their constellation of religious beliefs (and associated advantages), regardless of the truth value of that specific belief. For me, that's the same human belief creation process/dynamic that leads us to believe that people associated with a progressive perspective on marriage equality are happier/healthier in order to prop up our belief in marriage equality, regardless of the truth of that supporting belief about the health/happiness of people who share our perspective.
So in the bigger picture, for me, those human belief processes are something that we all share as humans, in the same way that we all share the gender creation processes of our sex chromosomes, and the skin color creation processes of the melanin in our skin, and the sexuality creation processes of who our brains tell us to be attracted to. The social/cooperative advantages of believing that we're all equal regardless of our individual gender/"gender creation process" or individual skin color/"skin color creation process" or individual sexuality/"sexuality creation process" is starting to become more advantageous (because they support greater social cooperation) than the advantages of our previous sexist racist homophobic beliefs, so societally our beliefs are changing. Hooray!
But we're not quite there yet with respect to our belief creation processes - it's still advantageous for us to believe that my/our belief processes are superior to other people with different ones. But for me, the question of whether my belief creation processes and resulting beliefs are better or "should"er than other people's is just part of the same question of whether or not my skin color creation process and resulting skin color or gender creation process and resulting gender or sexuality creation process and resulting sexuality are superior to theirs.
For me, I don't really believe it is - I believe that we're all just right pieces of a bigger picture. And I think that's really the core belief that many of us share and drives our support for gay marriage.
We've gotten to the point where the advantages of sexism/racism/homophobia are starting to be less advantageous than the social cooperation advantages of a belief in the equality/commonality of our gender creation/skin color creation/sexuality creation processes, we just haven't gotten to that point with respect to our belief creation processes. I think that's just part of who and where we are in our progression in our role as humans, and something that will continue to "progress", the same way our thinking on gay marriage has. :-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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Of course it's unimportant to the outcome of the Court's decision, but for the politics it's interesting to know that Obama took a position in favor of Gay marriage while running for state senator, against when running for President, and in favor again more recently. Hillary was emphatically for "traditional" marriage until she decided the Presidency was for her.
Anyone who thinks these politicians care about the best interests of any particular group, other than to exploit them politically, is naive.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:11am PT
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Ksolem, what you fail to appreciate is the effect of being under a microscope for decades at a time.
You for example. I would bet that you have changed your opinion on a variety of issues over time, Gay marriage, perhaps.
What major character flaw does that expose?
And yet, you want to hold people up to a standard that is unrealistic for anyone.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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I doubt Obama ever changed his opinion.
He just changes what he says it is.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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Vote Bernie Sanders! He's running on a Truth plateform.
Seems outlandish, but it might work!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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I doubt Obama ever changed his opinion.
He just changes what he says it is.
That's true of politicians generally, because both political parties have developed litmus tests necessary to obtain their nominations, that differ from positions needed to win a general election. If the centrists in either political party ever started to dominate that party's primary and nomination process, that party would never lose another election until its opponents moved to the center as well.
John
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2015 - 11:44am PT
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Ken, of course I've changed my mind about all sorts of issues over the years. I haven't done so because people would like me better for having done so. Sometimes I'll struggle with an issue for years, as we all do. When this is going on it's not seemly to loudly announce a change of mind every several years. Under the microscope? Politicians are professionals at being under the microscope.
FWIW I've never had a change of heart about Gay people. Of course when I was growing up in the dance and music community in New York the concept of Gay marriage seemed pretty far fetched, but being close friends with gay women and men, many of them life couples, seemed natural. And I grieved to see friends begin to die off from aids. So many talented people gone so quickly back then. So for me to support gay marriage is not exactly a stretch.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 29, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
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JE is that the long way to say "two-faced" or "speaks with forked toungue"??
KSolem was spot on.
True about Kris, particularly reading his most recent post.
I agree with Ken that people, even politicians, change their minds, but that's not what's going on here. If anyone looks closely at the platforms of either political party, they would conclude that both major parties intend to ruin us with dogmatically rigid positions have little resemblance to reality. The candidates for President in either party need to pay lip service to those platforms, and the often disastrous ideas they propose, in order to garner the nomination. They do so, however, with a wink and a nod.
I hate that, because lying is a cancer that can spread to your whole being. Anyone interested can look at my own tale elsewhere on ST to see what sort of self-loathing lies can engender. If nothing else, the SCOTUS now allows politicians to say "Gay marriage is the law of the land, so what I think about it doesn't matter anymore." This eliminates one area on which a politician feels compelled to lie.
John
P. S.
In other words, politicians lie because the voters demand it.
I wish you were wrong, DMT, but you're correct.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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I think it's deeper than that. Certainly the big money backers have a say in what our "leaders" say and do. I also agree with DMT.
But the whole mess has morphed into a culture of lies, where everyone knows they are being lied to and they align themselves with the lies which suit them, those which resonate and make them feel good.
On another note, to those who cry out that Gay marriage will destroy the institution of marriage I ask: What do you think a divorce rate of app. 50% has done to your beloved institution?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:40pm PT
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Something in Kris' post above reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for some time.
To my knowledge, the only people who oppose same-sex marriage do so on religious grounds. I have never heard anyone say, "Well, I'm not religious, but I feel same-sex marriage ought to be forbidden because..."
Do any of you here on ST who feel gay marriage should be forbidden have any reason other than your religion?
Does anyone here know someone who opposes it on non-religious grounds?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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In 50 years people will look back on gay marriage like we look back on the Emancipation Proclamation. What took so long and what were you thinking otherwise?
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:55pm PT
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G-d's Torah is still the law of the Universe, it matters not one yod or tittle what man does or what laws he comes up with to circumvent G-d's laws of nature and G-d's spiritual laws that govern all of creation. He is the Creator and Master of the Universe. Who will challenge him and survive?
Judgement cometh. Every knee will bow and proclaim Yeshua HaMashiach as Adonai above all at the very end. You will either do so with G-d or you will do so
against G-d.
This life is temporary but the life to come is eternal. How are you going go spend eternity?
No rainbow flag is going to save you. Get Right with G-d before it's too late.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
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Public opinion of marriage equality has changed fast. Who hasn't changed their views on this in the last decade? Look at the polls. You don't know the presidents heart; he changed his mind, so what?
Look, you righties had a bad week. Most of the country celebrated, you are glum. Needn't worry, you still have your guns. (For now!)
And I'm praying for you, Klimmer...you need it.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:19pm PT
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So do the Muslims and mosques have to comply as well? Will they? If they don't will there be protests and Mosques and Muslim owned businesses being shut down like Christian ones are? No one hates gays like the Muslim religion, it is very clear they refuse to accept homosexuality and in most Muslim countries you will get killed for it. I've talked to "moderate" Muslims about this several times and there is no gray area. Islam does not accept homosexuality period.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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Does anyone here know someone who opposes it on non-religious grounds?
i've polled quite a few secular people about this issue. And the over all attitude i get, and i'll say i'm most happy with and think should be the christians take in a secular world. Most say they think homosex is gross, and they wouldn't ever partake in it, BUT we ALL do some wierd things in life and no one else should be able to dictate our behavior if what we're doing makes us happy and we're not hurting anyone else.
Shouldn't this be the attitude in a "Free Nation"?
We have been blessed with the constitution. But this is not God's nation. It's a Man's nation!
i think the attitude of "we all do some wierd things" should ring true to the christian who believes "we are all sinners" and should relax their judgemental condemnation towards the secular society. With that said the government shouldn't be able to corral the christian in his behaviors or opinions.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:51pm PT
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If they don't will there be protests and Mosques and Muslim owned businesses being shut down like Christian ones are?
Just because a law is instituted doesn't mean one has to change his opinion/belief! The consumption of ahlcohol and cigarettes are lawful, but that doesn't mean there aren't people out there that hate these activities.The line is only crossed when someone gets hurt.
The next issue is gonna be over the business' rights to market..
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
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This life is temporary but the life to come is eternal. How are you going to spend eternity? Good grief. You’re posts are an eternity of their own. How am I going to spend it? Dead, I presume.
Folks who think homosexuality is “gross” have obviously not spent a night with a really wild woman.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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Why are married people afforded benefits (apparently one of the big items under consideration by the justices) that single people are not?
well way back when only one spouse/parent needed/wanted to work. The realization that one person's income was actually providing for two people. Thus we demanded less taxation:)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Right you are....religions do not own morality. Many religions promote intolerance, or worse, against non believers. Many also preach intolerance of any who don't suscribe to their code of conduct.
I have moral people who are religious as I have met moral people who are areligious or anti religious.
I much prefer the company of secular people whose code of conduct is based on common human values rather than dogma of questionable origin.
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