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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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healyje, you are as crazy left in your extreme partisan politics on this issue as others are crazy right in theirs.
you gotta lay off the ben affleck fantasy stuff, man. (Not that you asked but of course I'd recommend Sam Harris and those of his TRIBE.)
There's so much teaming up in partisan politics now people don't even notice how invalid or inaccurate their views are anymore. (Or even care how inexperienced their views are anymore.) It's like whatever FAUX News says, it can't be right and so they gotta take the opposite. Not good.
The only silver lining here is that we're having so much conversation now thx to internet and social media around the world that things (issues) can't help but get sorted out eventually.
I'm 54. Many of you (youngins, millenials) have no idea how unspoken much of this was even one generation ago. Wow. (You millenials are lucky, I'm envious of your time.)
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chacha
Mountain climber
Fontainebleau, FRANCE
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Thanks for the drawing HFCS
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Too bad they got what they wanted- to be hailed as martyrs for the cause. Paris will not "be peaceful", nor will any other democratic society because there will always be the under educated fanatics who are easily led to believe what they're fed by power hungry leaders with no one to answer to because it's "the word of god/the prophet/whatever".
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chacha
Mountain climber
Fontainebleau, FRANCE
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Last news : several hostages died during (or before ?) the assault of the casher shop in Paris Porte de Vincennes
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John M
climber
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I believe what Healyje is saying is that certain people pick at the sore so that it never heals. He isn't saying that there was never a sore. There is a long history in the middle east of revenge and hate. But what does happen with those who pick at sores is that the wound gets worse instead of better. The region remains destabilized. American and European policies have been doing that in many regions for years. The simple reason is that it helps keep the war machine going. The deeper reason is lust for power. This in no way is saying that every American or European policy is bad, or that we are completely at fault. Its just not that simple Thats where some people get hung up. When someone says that American policy is helping to stir the pot, they interpret that as all American policy and that we are fully to blame. Which is not what was said. And so no discussion happens and no understanding happens because sides get taken. It becomes a black and white issue, which is how wars keep happening for centuries.
Using language like "The chuff " is one way a sore is picked at and never allowed to heal. Though it is also in part true that the person needs to want to heal.
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John M
climber
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I admire bad ass people who can and are willing to defend the vulnerable too. How they are used is where problems can and often do arise. I am grateful for the Chiefs service. I also disagree with some of his points of view. I can respect him for his service, while at the same time disagreeing with him.
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Degaine
climber
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Hi The Chief,
How much time have you spent in Paris? Paris suburbs (or Marseilles and Lyon for that matter)? France? How well do you speak French? Or how about just lived anywhere in France?
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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It becomes a black and white issue, which is how wars keep happening for centuries.
Bingo. Good post.
^^Kinda sounds like where our society is heading eh?!
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John M
climber
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I'm not sure of the strategy either Bruce. You are correct. Some people just do not want to learn. And the bigger problem is that many people think they want to learn, but in reality they have their own personal dogma and aren't truly open. But thats often simply because shifts in ones foundational paradigm can be very unsettling.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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And as mentioned before, the ME is a prime target for meddling since Western interests have f'ed it up for centuries now. Hell before that there were still 800 different tribes with their own agendas and axes to grind with each other. But we go and draw lines in the sand and rock as if they mean anything.
There is no way to "win" by military force there. Only ways for the MIC to make money. Making that money costing our own brave men their lives for nothing and scores more civilians theirs as well.
But here we go again, let's rain death in the desert once again....
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Some people just do not want to learn.
Sometimes this requires humility. What happened to humility? Was it more prominent in face-to-face meetings as opposed the internet forum/chatroom shitaqua?
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LearningTrad
Trad climber
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Hi the chief,
How much time have you spent in Lee Vining?
How much ice have you climbed there?
Do you even exist?
;)
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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The question is: Can treating unreasonable people with contempt be only unproductive?
A great question.
Bruce, there is another issue that should be kept in mind: An attack such as the one in Paris might be considered in a broader light, that it is a provocation, rather than an end in itself.
Strategically thinking, as in 911. Bin Laden had as his primary grievance, the regime in Saudi Arabia, aided by the US. It was not an accident that the 19 hijackers were Saudi. It was not an accident that the shoe bomber was British.
Part of what was a goal, was to create the energy for a backlash against Saudi Arabia and Britain.
Here, in the current attack against France, I think that one of the goals of the overseers orchestrating such things, is to get the west to create a backlash against ALL muslim, causing a radicalization and recruiting bonanza.
This type of strategy has been highly effective in creating ISIS.
So now, we see the media supporting widespread printing of the cartoons that are highly offensive to ALL muslims. The Paris attackers have won.
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chacha
Mountain climber
Fontainebleau, FRANCE
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Muslims in France today : "Pas en mon nom" (translation : not in my name)
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WBraun
climber
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Not everything is what it seems on the surface.
This thread so far has only seen the surface.
Deeper and deeper you will see what's going on.
It's not for the weak.
The sheep are too weak to handle the truth ......
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The smoke alarm in my Turd Eye just went off.
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Degaine
climber
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The Chief wrote:
Degaine... never had to do ops in France. They have a pretty good history at dealing with the "cultists" for the past 1400 years.
If you're referring to Charles "The Hammer" Martel, it was 1283 years ago to be pedantic, but that's neither here nor there.
Honest question, and given your exchange with healyje, if you've never lived or spent any significant time in France, how can you possibly comment competently on this incident?
Second honest question, how much time did you spend in the places on your list in order to get a clear grasp of the local history and culture (and language) in order to understand the actual context of the conflict involved?
Here's the rub:
*While religion - in whatever form - is the opium of the people and a powerful and effective device for manipulating a population, one would have to make a conscious and considerable effort not to see that in 2015 a certain rotten strain of Islam doesn't mix well with poverty, disenfranchisement, and being a male between the ages of 15-35. That is one rather explosive cocktail. That written, to all of those who make blanket statements about Islam, all is well in countries where the other ingredients aren't there (see the US as an example).
*But one also has to willfully wrap themselves in ignorance to owe it all to Islam and purposefully not consider the local context: Hizbollah and Hamas are not the same - not their goals nor their origins. Might I remind everyone that the Mujahideen / Taliban were our allies to oust the USSR from Afghanistan.
*As a corollary to my second point, and along the lines of a couple of healyje's posts, the US and the west are not innocent bystanders in the shitstorm in the Middle East. We deposed a democratic elected leader in Iran in the 1950s and installed a brutal dictator - did anyone truly not expect some form of backlash?
Lastly, The Chief I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't make some wisecrack or fun of the French like Dave Kos at the beginning of the thread. When it comes to counter-terrorism, or even gathering intelligence in the Mideast or Afghanistan, the French know their sh#t - the GIGN is top notch.
Anyway, I'm late to the party, so I'll stop before the post gets too long winded.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"So now, we see the media supporting widespread printing of the cartoons that are highly offensive to ALL muslims. The Paris attackers have won." -Ken M
What's sad is how these "extremist" "ideology" and "terrorism" related issues have divided the left on its liberal principles. But in time this too will sort out I think. Such is the power of the internet-driven IT age over our lives.
It's too bad though that this sorting out into stable workable patterns over time (long and short) apparently has to be so reactionary - so much more reactionary rather than a csq of interest, reason and planning. As many of these conflicts were/are foreseeable.
now, we see the media supporting widespread printing of the cartoons
Good.
highly offensive to ALL muslims.
Too bad.
The Paris attackers have won.
Nonsense.
Where is your backbone on this issue?
The mystery here is how you can be so insightful and spot-on with your end-of-life postings and so spinelessly outlandish on these subjects.
Where is the exercise of your liberal principles in regards to the religious-conservatism-shackled affairs of these other countries? You relentlessly attack Christianity in America for its backwardness yet it's not half as backward (set-backward) as Islam in other countries. And with growing globalization and modern funding sources this backwardness of Islam is going to grow louder still. Stand up for people everywhere under its yoke - that's the rightening strategy. Now is the time. (Even beginning with "Muslims" Malala and Benazir Bhutto.) Show us the liberal (the courageous, no-nonsense, progress-minded liberal) that you are on the end-of-life matter. Stand with Charb and the others who died defending freedom of expression (lib pr) or go sit down. At least on this one.
.....
Offensive to Muslims?
Yes!
Yeah, so.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Why are you singling out Muslims Ken M?
You are aware that the paper equally humorously mocked ALL religions and forms of politics globally on a regular basis? Does that then give anyone else that they mocked the right to do as these three Jihadists did?
Didn't you read the title of this thread?
Duh.
No one has the right to do as these Jihadists did.
Just as your conservative buddies don't have the right to kill gays or blacks, either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Per the last line of his last post (last page), our KenM is more remindful of the reasoning and philosophy of this guy...
than of an au courant, fully-engaged liberal.
:(
"What unites Muslims in their anger against Charlie Hebdo is the vulgar manner in which Muhammad has been portrayed. What they object to is being intentionally insulted over the course of many years. On this aspect, I am in total agreement with them." -Bill Donohue
"It is too bad that he [Charb] didn’t understand the role he played in his tragic death... Had he not been so narcissistic, he may still be alive." -BillDonohue
http://www.catholicleague.org/muslims-right-angry/
.....
LIBERAL PRINCIPLES INCLUDE...
 Freedom of expression
.....
"No one has the right to do as these Jihadists did." -Ken M
There you go. Jihadis or Jihadists (aka militant Islamists). So now let's see some emphasis for a change (and not just from you but from the Ben Afflecks out there) as opposed to neglect or as opposed to... See no evil, hear no evil. -On the religious conservatism of Islam and the malignant role it plays (for a long time running now) all across the international community, the modern world.
Malala thanks you. Bhutto thanks you. Charb thanks you.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30744693
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