Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 11:54am PT
|
"I've had partners tell my sorry ass just nail to avoid the fifteen or more minutes of diddling trying to scrape a little dirt out behind a crystal to place a little HB." -- cybele
So, I'm not the only one, cyb? =) Hey, it was getting late and all I could think about was that can of green beans and the bottle of Hi-C I had down below. I don't think I said anything about your ass being sorry though. Incidentally, how's my chalk bag? heh!
Mark -- So, you are you saying each climb/ascent isn't the same?!?! And we're not all the exact same body type and we all think differently?! Say it isn't so!!!
Cheers!
|
|
John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:02pm PT
|
I never said anything about "ownership" and for the record I do not believe anyone "owns" route/rock/etc. It is about moving forward with a less damaging style. We could always contrive examples that don't fit or are unrealistic. A clear thought process will lead to better end results. Starting off thinking clean will leave the hammer on the ground (or in the bag). This would be a great start. Also, if gear lists reflected a clean ascents rack versus the old nailing rack.
|
|
the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
|
SG: "It isn't really even about speedclimbing, per se. It is about haste and expedience and their relationship to impact."
It probably would have been more productive to start this thread with that type of statment.
Back to the placement in question for us punters who will never get on the route but are interested in the generalization of this example to other climbs; is the blind nut placement the same spot where Ammon nailed (or did he nail lower)? If other parties had nailed there before Ammon and ruined the clean placement does Ammon deserve blame for something out of his control? If it was the same spot, it sounds like it had changed from a blind nut placment, to something that might possibly go with equalized slider nuts as per CMac's report, so it most likely was not in the same condition as on the first clean ascent. He did say it may possibly go with equalized slider nuts, though so how much effort should have been given to that? If he spent an hour and couldn't get anything to stick, should they have bailed or nailed?
IMO if this clean crux move was blown out by nailing, that IS an ethical blunder. But it seems we don't have enough information to judge Ammon for that, doing so prematurely was wrong.
|
|
Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
|
people should nail on clean routes more often. it livens up the internet forums.
edit: whoa, i posted this and magically the forum went back to unpaginated format.
|
|
Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
|
" How about that, the park service should just BAN PITONS. You do not own the land. Would that help you get it in check? " -
Sure, but only if they ban all bolts too ( including the removal of all existing bolts ). I'll just go sailing instead then...........
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:15pm PT
|
I'm still not hearing a response to Mark's question about the chicken bolt on Horse Play.
It doesn't get it done to say that perhaps SG didn't lead the pitch. Even if not, he was sitting there on Truck Stop, about 35 feet below, watching that bolt go in. Complicity at the very least.
And this point does matter to the major theme of this thread. Not only does it appear that the pot is calling the kettle black, but this point also denotes the very sliding scale of evaluation that we all know exists and that SG ignores as he imagines some absolutist ethical model applying to the "clean" vs. "hammered" distinction (among many other "ethical" distinctions). Finally, SG singles out one placement in Ammon's ascent, while we single out one placement in the Horse Play FA. Pick your poison.
Finally, we did the SA of Horse Play just about three weeks after the FA, so I'm not buying that some mythical party got up there before us and placed the chicken bolt. BTW, we removed the bolt and filled the hole with epoxy and dirt, making it invisible and thereby making the pitch actually as "hard" as it was rated. That is the only bolt we have ever removed from a climb. We much prefer to drill holes than erase them! But in this one act, you can call it our small effort to atone for our many acts of drilling... oh, and also to ensure that SG's karma as a purist would return to its ongoing pristine state.
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:23pm PT
|
John, I have no problem with anything you said in your last post. I think that in the case of CT someone came up with an ingenious solution to a single placement, a solution which was not widely known at the time of Ammon’s ascent. Ammon acted reasonably with the info available to him at the time. That’s why the attack on him seems really unreasonable. But even if Ammon had been aware of the solution, should the route now be now closed to him and all others who don’t do that one placement clean? I would discourage someone to go ahead with that one pin anyway, but neither would I condemn.
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
|
Madbolter1
It is ironic indeed that I've been charged with "nitpicking", while this whole thread is about one pin.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
|
I'm getting REAL tired of pointing this out but, despite the thread title and opening, this is not about single placements but the greater issue of preserving routes once they have been climbed clean.
Its not a hijacking merely a broader view.
|
|
Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
|
" That's why I do allow for some use of nailing, but there has to be a plan for route preservation or else the action becomes selfish and unethical.
Ethics is a term that speaks to the way our actions affect others"-
Piton Ron, I'm thinking that by this logic that Harding's bolt ladders and dowel pitches on WEML are more ethically pure than Porter's pitches on the Shield, is that what you're saying? That Porter was selfish and Harding was thinking of all mankind? Actually, that would mean Wings Of Steel is an ethically better route preservation wise than the Nose was.
|
|
John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:41pm PT
|
Thanks Ron
He knew that the route went clean and left the ground armed to hammer. There clean move does not require any real trickery, just the mental commitment to do it clean. The move is not even very dangerous. As Ron points out, it is not a discussion about a single placement. It is a coversation of how we should protect our resources for the future and our commitment to that ideal.
John Fowler
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
|
uh oh.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
|
In a sense, Ben, Porter WAS more selfish, but we both know that this is an unfair statement given the historical context.
Still we DO deal with the legacy of a safety system that mandated use of a hammer, and that tends to cloud the issues.
|
|
yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 01:53pm PT
|
I heard Ammon left a poo streak fifty yards long down Cosmic Trauma. That's what you call LAME.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
|
Oh man, the images on this post are the best ever. Made my day.
Thanks a load Ouch! Hawkeye, perfect.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
|
the Fet'
You have all the information at your disposal here. John Fowler lead the pitch in question without pounding and has exhaustively detailed the options available at the C3 section. The lack of ambiguity is what makes this situation a perfect testcase as I said on an earlier post. I may have been mistaken that the route has been done clean by more than the Fowler party. He is understated but very clear in his posts. The lack of a repeat doesn't really change its status as a known clean climb. Excuses and rationalization pale in the light of direct experience and fact. Not about Mr. Mcneely, is this dialog. I don't know how else to put it. Chew on the meat of the arguements presented thoroughly and spit or swallow please.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
|
In the context of the broader discussion, it would seem once a route has gone clean the first bold ethical decision happens on the ground while racking up: hammer or no hammer? At that point bringing a hammer can only be rationalized one of three ways - safety (ass saved), expediency (time saved), or imperative (top saved). Once a hammer is on the route it's more about equivocation and battling temptation.
As for relavancy to the specifics of of Chris and Ammon's ascent, it sounds like they were pretty casual about the whole affair and weren't doing a lot of "deep thinking", ethically or otherwise, but just looking forward to climbing and getting after something. It's a bit hard for me to believe folks would really question their motives, general ethics, abilities, or their desire to preserve rock and routes. So what I think I'm hearing here more than anything else is that, given their icon status, some folks would like them to stop for a moment and better consider the clean ethics / status of a given route before launching. That the rock is due at least that. There is no doubt we could all stand to better consider our impact along with our fun. If that's the case, then I'd say the point has definitely been made.
|
|
John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
|
Maybe do more than just consider, act on the ideal. I know that I do not go up and do a route clean by accident or luck.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 14, 2006 - 02:46pm PT
|
John,
I'd say that's for each of us to decide, though a basic and shared context for such decisions is what allows us and others to understand just how bold, clean, and / or innovative any given route or ascent was.
Kudos to you for a clean CT job...
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
|
MSmith,
The lead was mine but the bolt is not. The climbing on those pitches is pretty tame and I don't recall any bolts placed other than at the belay stations. I have no problem looking at bad falls and have been doing so for decades. The odds are that I placed a nut in that natural pocket and that the next party didn't care to follow suit. Did you try a nut before bashing a head in there?
Yours was likely not the second ascent as you claim. Considering the absolutely disfunctional relationship that you and Dick had with the Valley climbing community, I would question that assumption before adding a chickenbolt to my accomplishments. I truely am a piss stained coward, everybody knows that. Right.
You and Dick seem to have a peculiar fascination with this area of the wall as bolting accross to Truckstop and heading up more virgin territory independently during your WOS tribulations would have made much more sense than bolting left to reach the soggy Aquarian. Might this be the "baggage" to which you refer?
Anyway, while you are here some details please. Clay Wadman's El Cap map shows a variation to Horseplay. Is this your doing? I have even heard rumor that you claim Horseplay as your own which is laughable. I believe it was Dick that soloed the Horsechute before Sue Harrington and I did Horseplay. Is that accurate information? When you repeated Horseplay and "blew by" my supposed indiscretion, were you alone or with a partner? How many days were required for each ascent. Lastly, what vile combination of Bivi foods do you consume to induce the tremendous flatulence necessary to boost yourself past tricky aid moves by inducing the blow by. Is this like automotive cylinder blow by or some otherwise secret and mysterious mechanism? Inquiring minds would like to know. Please elaborate.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!