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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Let's revisit this issue when your kid (or one you are very close to) gets their head shot off by an out-of-control Uzi that was put into their hands by a moronic parent. (Perhaps even yourself.)
Not worried at all. I'll take my chances.
And something I never imagined will be what takes me out.
I'm a climber. I'm gonna die, and so is everybody else.
Get over it.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Do you use draws, madbolter1?
Never had much use for 'em.
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Degaine
climber
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johnnyrig wrote:
Hey, how about that 11yo who died because the draws were incorrectly assembled? Did you whine about new legislation for that, or just write it off as another horrible accident? Totally preventable.
I haven't followed the situation closely since late last year, but if memory serves the guides / instructors who were responsible for ensuring the safety of the entire group of minors - this was an organized outing - were brought up on manslaughter charges for negligence. Honestly not sure how the proceedings finished.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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jonny, your 'question' was answered days ago. You either missed it due to your reading comprehension issues, or you are just being an arguing troll.
In either case, you get what you give. Get it?
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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jonnyrig?
Was this the question you asked?
How about putting rf chips in speed limit signs, or embedded in the freeway so that vehicles could be automatically governed to the max speed limit?
Maybe built into the Gps system already on the vehicle?
 you don't see a hint of topic change in your statement?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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That's how our system works. I advocate to folks that we the people have a right, an absolute right, to change the constitution, if we choose. There is even a constitutional vehicle for it. We can change the 2nd amendment or even repeal it. We have that right and that power.
You can change the constitution, but you cannot change the inalienable rights upon which it was based and that were presumed in its creation. The second amendment is not what grants the right to keep and bear arms. That amendment presumes the right, and that right will remain regardless of the verbiage or existence of that amendment.
Change the constitution very much, and you'll have war on your hands. The right of revolution is the REAL "absolute right." That is what trumps the false "absolute right" of the majority faction you appear to want to exercise.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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I asked how many deaths of soloing minors it would take to pass restrictive legislation.
ok, so... do you see how I can see a false equiv happening there?
Please check one of my posts that splains why I think so..
Not that I am in this discussion at all, or anything..
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"I asked how many deaths of soloing minors it would take to pass restrictive legislation."
Well, I suppose that question might be easier answered if/when it ever happens (esp. at an 8 y/o level).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Slaveholders said the same thing. They were wrong too.
You see, it comes down to 'We the people'. Not you the single gun owner. When we the people decide, it will be done. Gun rattling will not stop it.
Seriously, are you that confused? I mean, is it really possible for anybody educated in this society to be THAT clueless?
You are equating slavery with inalienable rights?
Look, you have the ABILITY to do many things, including change the constitution. But you confuse ability with right. I have the ABILITY to murder you, but I clearly do not have the right to do so.
You and people like you might get enough of a majority faction together to ultimately make all sorts of constitutional changes. You'd have the ABILITY to become a majority faction (please, do look it up). But you would NOT have the right. The right of "the people" is NOT absolute!
And many millions of us will only tolerate so much "change" before you have a war on your hands. Call it "gun rattling" if you like, but people like you scare the CRAP out of me. You are confused AND feel empowered to exercise the (false) "absolute right" of "the people." That's a really, really bad combination!
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Dingus answers. Apogee deflects.
jonnyrig starts... changes sujects....
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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The guy who made the stupid judgment in this case paid for it with his life.
End of story.
Seems like that happens to a soloist every once in a while.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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If we had a simple licensing system here in the states for climbers we could save a lot of lives.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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WE... the people (some of whom, you just kaint reach!)
"We the people" do not have the right to do anything "we" wish, just because enough of "us" wish it. And if you think that "we" do, then, yes, you really do scare the crap out of me.
And if enough of "you" give it a real try, you will indeed have a war on your hands.
So far, people like you have been picking away at inalienable rights, bit by bit. And that is the real winning strategy for you, because the slow slide is almost imperceptible. Thus, people at any particular point don't recognize what has been lost.
Keep that up, and you'll "win," but I won't care because by then (at the present rate of slide) I'll be gone. But try to do big "change" in the lifetime of one person, and you WILL see a violent reaction.
So, my advice is to quit mouthing off and posturing and just stick with the program. That will ultimately get you what you want: A "safe" and "controlled" society.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
Obviously since the minority faction of the founding fathers didn't have any right to include these words in the Constitution, slavery didn't actually ever exist. Jefferson himself, speaking about a Virginia Bill to provide freedom of (christian) religion, acknowledged the ability and entitlement of future assemblies to remove that freedom, noting only that it would be against natural law. He could see and accept the practical differences between "natural law" and human law, why do you pretend that you can't?
TE
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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It's ALL relative. Accidents happen. Get over it.
Yes they do happen, we mourn, we move on.
Doesn't mean that some can't try to lessen the amount of them in some way.
Some here are having a hard time differentiating between an intentional killing and an accidental killing.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Obviously since the minority faction of the founding fathers didn't have any right to include these words in the Constitution, slavery didn't actually ever exist. Jefferson himself, speaking about a Virginia Bill to provide freedom of (christian) religion, acknowledged the ability and entitlement of future assemblies to remove that freedom, noting only that it would be against natural law. He could see and accept the practical differences between "natural law" and human law, why do you pretend that you can't?
Uhh... the differentiation between human and natural law (inalienable rights) is precisely the distinction I have been making.
You can change human law and get enough of a majority together to do whatever you wish. What you CAN do comes completely apart from what you have the RIGHT to do.
As long as your faction is in the minority, no worries. The republican system of governance controls you. But, as Federalist 10 notes, when a faction gains the majority, that is the ONE and fatal threat to a rights-based government.
When a majority faction gains the ascendancy, the ONLY remedy left for rights-loving people is revolution. This is not a "threat." This is basic political philosophy.
I would not even bother to argue these points with people like you, as clearly you do not care about fair and charitable argumentation. But there are many lurkers who are of reasonable mind and who can discern correct principles when they are expressed.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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One of the arcane arguments for the, now outdated, Second Amendment is that an armed populace couldn't be subjected to a tyrannical government. That may have been somewhat true 231 years ago but times do change.
Foremost is the fact that the world's oldest democracy has proven over 200 plus years that tyrannical, despotic leaders cannot emerge in a true democracy.
Secondly....scraggly, turkey necked militia types who feel disenfranchised could no more mount a revolution than they could get into their local community college.
Witness the fire power of just a single 12 man Special Forces A Detachment and you'll understand.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jonyrig....I can assure you that the US military will take care of ISIS. Why don't you join up and help dude? I served my time and i resent know it all chicken hawks who talk big and do nothing.
I don't believe that militia groups are going to be a factor in the war on ISIS...do you?
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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At what point are you justified in shooting at your government?
That's weird....
you planning something?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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When you feel that some "faction" has taken control of the government, then it's ok to start shooting?
Are you really that uncharitable, unschooled, and even idiotic?
Seriously
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