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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 24, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
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on the STForum, isn't it at least a bit refreshing to hash out climbing issues rather than the other political choss?
There's certainly room for and value in both, but, yes, I'll agree that this is good climbing substance.
I love to hear the tortured reasons why it is not the "best style" by people who actually know it is... so I'm not only obsessed, I'm delusional.
Not delusional. And the reasons why your definition is incorrect are not "tortured."
There are many clear-cut counterexamples to your definition that are clearly "best style" but fail your definition. You continually ignore these, and your steadfastness in simply ignoring, rather than showing what's wrong with, the counterexamples is, yes, a bit obsessive.
Perhaps we can start with getting clear on the answer to this simple question: Are parkas on K2 "aid" according to your definition? Why or why not?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
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don't get your dig, DMT
I'm good with any style, I wouldn't put routes up in any style, and I wouldn't advocate for anything but "best style" 'cause we all agree that that is "ideal" (or hopelessly romantic... whatever).
Maybe some of the responders to this post fear that I would start raving about lack of conviction to adhere to the "best style" but I fully understand the situations where that style is not used in a FA. I totally get the issues surrounding the choices for a style.
Perhaps what I would wish, growing from this discussion, was a fuller understanding from not only the FA community but the community of climbers that come after the FA, about the intentions that go into an FA, and why there is some apparent variation, and where that comes from in terms of what is deemed an individual's choice.
Oddly, some of the same voices that say "I should use any style I want depending on how I feel" object to routes for which the FA did not consider other climbers, in particular in using "best style" (or near to it). Often these result in routes that are challenging to lead due to choices made in placing protection.
My feeling is that if the FA figured out how to avoid grievous injury or death, that a team armed with the knowledge of the route can do the same, or at least know enough not to attempt it if they deem they have inadequate skills.
Lots of these routes eventually become routine for high end climbers of any generation, but may not be accessible to the majority of climbers.
Sometimes that is the intention of the FA team, sometimes not.
I'd weight the voting by the number of full length pitches put up, a vote for every pitch... (you get half vote for a half pitch)
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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Danielle Steel has written 92 books and J.D. Salinger and Harper Lee have each written one. No doubt Steel knows more about the publishing process and probably what will generate the most sales overall, but does that maker her the most reliable authority with regard to the quality of the final product?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
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Ron, fact IS that top climbers of TODAY don't even consider death routes of yesterday as test pieces. There is a climber that soloed a 5.13 and people do more bad ass sh#t than ever. There were pussies back in your day and there are pussies out there now. What's the point of always trying to sting the crop of today's climbers? Are you that insecure?
But today, it would be called irresponsible of the FA. Labelled a death lead and scorned in general as it required 50 plus feet of face climbing on imaginary pro. Another party just a few years back came upon that face and not knowing they were on a route bolted it. Safe to say the thrill of that pitch aint what it used to be.
If someone bolts a line without knowing there was someone's line there it is not that big of a deal. Jesus Christ, it is not like they did it on purpose. If there was a clearer history or if bolts were visible, I am sure not many would touch that line.
One route i did that has received bolts long after i first did it was such a place- and in the middle of a longish runout i craftily put a long dong piton behind a crappy lil flake for pro. I didnt have a lot of confidence in it holding a very long fall as it was placed like a chock- and i yelled down to Chuck that Royal would be proud of me for that. And in that weak state of security i somehow gathered the needed "oomph" to continue upward on thin holds, smears and occasional decent hold to a fine ledge. I was more than pleased with my effort in fact i was down right feeling super human. A high-high that was. And the "good lead Henry" when Chuck reached the ledge bolstered that. ( Back then our entire group was nicknamed "henry" lmao!)
Be proud of yourself for breaking through own fears. It shouldn't bother you that it received new bolts from someone whose skills/composure/ethics were different from yours. Especially if they didn't know there was a route there...
PS: Ed, so how many votes do I get for 32 new pitches with about 4,200 ft of climbing in the last 6 months? LOL
I think number of pitches shouldn't matter though. I think it should only matter if you can beat everyone else from this thread in a bar fight.
This thread is evolving!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
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A pin on your route is often a good sign that you're not on an FA. (ETA Sorry…I was thinking about an earlier post, the C. Corner one, not Ron's).
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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Whoever is trolling as Ron is funny! Hahaha
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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that would be 32, but taking Melissa's point to heart (and the general aside that it is just about climbing, it's not brain surgery or rocket science) quantity doesn't necessarily translate to quality.
As with any creative process (and all of the FA's we're talking about are the product of a creative process) a fraction of the product stand the "test of time." And while the FA teams definitely have their favorites, those may not be crowd pleasers.
But then again, as has been noted many times, it isn't about crowd pleasing, usually, it has to do with our own satisfaction.
"Best style" does take into account the inevitable conclusion that what we consider "impossible" today may be possible tomorrow. When we "murder the impossible" what we have done is denied some future climber the opportunity to do an FA in a better style than we could do it now.
If it is only about our own satisfaction, why does actually succeeding on a particular FA matter? It is all good climbing up to the point we cannot continue in "best style." Layering all the other stuff on the climbing gives the FA some important status which is beyond our self satisfaction, it gives us affirmation from other climbers. Seeking affirmation is perilous when it becomes the end all.
We, the climbing community collectively, aren't mature enough yet to see the wisdom in letting someone else do better than we could do; perhaps it goes against human nature, I don't know.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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Just in case anyone wants to call me or my bros soft for rap boltingcracks, we will be at sugarloaf parking lot in the evening. Tapout shirts, power drills, spinning rims and baseball bats. Call us soft "Ron!"
Bwahahaha
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jun 24, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
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Ed, what if im learning to drill from hooks and stances, do a GU route with only 12ft runouts while some stronger climber can do it with 30 ft between bolts. He would have a bolder and better style, or would he?? My route might be enjoyed by more people, maybe? Maybe not? How about if I skipped climbing this route because I think someone else might do it in better style (whatever it is), how would I learn to hook and drill from stances if I always think someone can do it better?
Are the answers as obvious as the answer to OP? :-)
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 24, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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Ed wrote: that would be 32, but taking Melissa's point to heart (and the general aside that it is just about climbing, it's not brain surgery or rocket science) quantity doesn't necessarily translate to quality.
But there is something to say about having experience with doing new routes as to not doing them and then telling everyone what their style should be.
:-)
Roped trad climbing was/is relativity safe compared to downhill mountain biking, downhill skiing, BMX biking, skate boarding and host of other sports.
You have a better chance of getting hurt bouldering than you do rope climbing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
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since 2003 I've got 92 pitches of FA's mostly in the Valley and Tuolumne Meadows, nearly all of them with ablegabel, some of you have done some of those routes...
every route was done ground up
some of those turn out to be FA's on routes that had a previous FA we didn't know about...
getting hurt is a real possibility, Bob D', doing FAs in "best style" as a very good friend of mine knows... and in doing "trad roped climbing" as another very good friend of mine knows. but I think it will be counterproductive to squabble over such things.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
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Jeez Louise Ed, I've been thinking a lot about this. Damn you!!!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jun 24, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
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Charisma creates the best style...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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Demerits for chipping.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:09pm PT
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Ed: If it is only about our own satisfaction, why does actually succeeding on a particular FA matter?
Hmmm, definitely can't even go there and basically because, for me, it's all about the line. I usually don't 'pick' lines, they instead grab me for whatever reason and I tend to obsess over them. In general that obsessing takes the form of simply wanting to do the line as I see and envision it, in its entirety. And nothing about that entails anything but my own satisfaction and that of any partner involved. Again, love it, hate it, climb it, don't climb it - hell, I don't even care if you or anyone else knows about it beyond insuring it doesn't end up bolted stupid.
Ed: It is all good climbing up to the point we cannot continue in "best style."
It can still be all 'good climbing' even after a compromise from the point we cannot continue in "best style" depending on the reasons and circumstances around why a compromise was struck. On the six pitch, seven roof FA I've been working on (a compromise in its own right). Part of my desired 'best style' was cleaning and trundling on lead from stances - at least until we encountered a very loose microwave-size block in the apex of the large A-frame roof that you had your face then chest against and no way to avoid it. We finally made the call to place a piece, do a take, clean it, come down, pull the rope and give it another go later. It was a slightly disappointing compromise, but not one I'm going to shed tears or walk away from the route over - sh#t happens and while I always strive for a particular ideal, I also understand pulling it off is not necessarily a common experience.
Ed: Layering all the other stuff on the climbing gives the FA some important status which is beyond our self satisfaction, it gives us affirmation from other climbers.
Once more I don't really care about anyone's affirmation other than, these days, enough acknowledgement of the route's existence to insure it isn't inadvertently sprayed with bolts [while I still want to climb it].
Ed: Seeking affirmation is perilous when it becomes the end all.
And what I suspect is actually behind a lot of 'crag development' and 'community service'.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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The Warbler: Climbers crave new rock...
And these days, if you're being honest, in most places you have to add the phrase: ...to bolt.
The Warbler: I've done around a thousand FAs in 45 yrs of climbing, by the way, couchmaster (since you asked), and the best style for the game has definitely changed from my seasoned perspective.
Here we agree, so few climbers in today's demographic have experienced or understand what it means to be runout thirty or forty feet into the unknown on a difficult FA having to figure out a sequence while actually climbing, unable to reverse course or rest in place by any means - not to mention simultaneously scanning for decent pro.
But in that, and to some some significant extent, it's not just 'the game' of climbing which has changed, but rather the very definition of what climbing 'is'.
Or at least from what I can tell, the vast majority of today's demographic experience and 'define' climbing as this: 'clip, dog, clip, dog, clip, dog, redpoint, next'. Now that may be climbing to you, but it so far removed from what I'm after and conceive of as climbing as to almost escape words. Sure, to each his own, but I personally wouldn't bother climbing if that was the sum total of my experience with rock.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
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Healy
With all due respect...
you sound like a sourpuss!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
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How long would you guess?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
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Close!
...and FYI, I've never climbed in a curio. :-)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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Healy, With all due respect...you sound like a sourpuss!
I'm actually not, I just that I came up in a time and place where we were lucky enough that a small group of us were basically alone and everything we touched was an FA. That just left me with an indelible craving / obsession for being on unknown terrain and I also just happened to LOVE placing pro. I also am all about the movement, particularly having my feet higher than my hands whenever possible. That twin obsession with movement and pro have just left me in a state where, if I'm not placing pro, then I'd rather just TR to really focus purely on the movement and rhythm without all the annoying faux clipping.
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