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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 19, 2014 - 09:18am PT
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The Fishers are ideal ground for for "patching" small holes. It wouldn't be hard to hide if scratches at a marginal placement misled a subsequent leader.
Not my style though. I've often gotten criticized for making routes too user friendly.
I hear that once routes get broken in there they are pretty solid, but FAs are a choss and mud fest. It is why I've never climbed there despite it being the first rock in Utah that I scoped out (I spotted Sun Devil, but then 3 months later met Harvey Carter who told me it had been done.)
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gumbyclimber
climber
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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There is clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character. You can celebrate one and not the other
If, however, a defect in character results in a booby trapped route you have a situation i don't think i have ever seen before in my 50 years of climbing.
Is there real evidence of booby trapped climbs or is it just hearsay?
Yes, Donini, absolutely; and there certainly is a lot of hearsay floating around about Beyer. Beyer is also responsible for disseminating plenty of that info/fuel himself. In addition, he's spent 15 years telling everybody who will listen that he doesn't believe I soloed Thor, even though there are photos of me both on the ledge that he bailed from and standing on top. So he's no stranger to spouting and fielding nonsense; he's a big boy and his admirers can rest easy knowing that he can take care of himself.
This is neither slander nor hearsay: I'm not saying what someone else told me about Jim, things I vaguely remember hearing about him around a campfire, or making stuff up to simply damage his reputation. Jim told me that he booby traps his routes and that his number one goal is for somebody to die on them. "The greatest honor," he proudly pronounced it. Among other things, he told me that he tapes all of his hangers and gear he can't get out, then he swings around off to the sides and places cheater-stick-bait booby traps. I'm simply incapable of making that up. He also attacked me and chased me around the tundra growling, "I'll kill you!!" so it's had for me to imagine why I should continue being quiet about it.
Personally, I much rather keep my mouth shut and stay out of it. I also heard him say plenty of vile and asinine things that would be great character assassiantion material but I'm not talking about those. The principle of non-aggression, however, is something I take seriously and I'm reporting two scenarios I consider to fall under that banner. I don't think a person should be able do or say things like that without some kind of consequence. A person should absolutely have to answer for those kinds of statements and behavior. Regardless of what you think about me (or him attacking me) booby trapping is a public issue and this, to my knowledge, is by far the best venue for airing that. If there are people out there who don't think I should say anything about this then it's exactly the same as saying that the women who accuse Bill Cosby of having drugged and raped them should keep their mouths shut because of his power/bullying, the risk of damaging his reputation, and because some people really like/approve of his work a lot. We'll then hear all kinds of excuses like "well, there was booze involved...", "you're a liar", or "those kinds of things just shouldn't be raised in public."
Thus, it is exactly the same as I said before, if Jim is to be taken at his word then I merely suggest being careful around him and his routes. It's not like he was asking me not to tell anyone what he said, to the contrary, he was telling everybody who would listen to the extent that a couple of Inuk were compelled to remark that, "He's pretty crazy, even for a white guy." And they know a thing or two about crazy white guys up there.
I'm totally willing to believe that I'm the one who is the jerk here. So: "Jim Beyer, I'm really sorry that I was friendly and encouraging to you on the phone when I gave you all the information you asked you for and more. I'm also sorry that I treated you impartially with kindness when we met and I cooked you dinner. I'm sorry that I proceeded to run away, like a scared child, when you attacked me. I'm sorry you have felt the need to discredit my ascent that I am, in turn, deeply sorry to have done ahead of you. I'm sorry you could't climb Thor from base-to-summit or even inside of year. And above all, I'm really sorry that you claim to both booby trap your routes and earnestly hope for the deaths of others. All I can offer is my gratitude for all that you have given to the climbing community and maybe the opportunity to assault me again in the future."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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I believe you. It fits.
The irony of course is that while Jim and I are diametrically opposed as to the types of routes we put up, my user friendly routes attract heavy traffic with the result that 5 people have died on them.
I don't blame myself, but it certainly doesn't feel good. For somebody to exult in the death of another as some sort of validation is sociopathic.
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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Regarding booby trapping: I have never personally seen evidence of this. That is just what I have heard from many people who seem reliable to me. You are correct to say that perhaps it is a piece of fiction that is becoming accepted truth by repetition. However, like I said, I have heard about this from many people I trust.
Regarding patching holes to make the route appear more difficult: I will cite every piece of internet and print media about subsequent ascents of Intifida. I will let you do your own googleing.
There are few things I hate more than arguing over the internet. I apologize if I offended either of you by calling you a "Beyer Worshiper". People can choose to admire whomever they choose. Beyer is not my personal choice, but if he is yours, go for it. I guess....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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I hate this thread ... A Grapefruit sized rock to the face ?? hmm not a gumby but a well seasoned well respected man who will not pass or point blame.... just asking...??
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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I can't find any reason not to believe gumbyclimber. His comments are the most credible evidence in this thread so far.
However I for one am not particularly concerned about what the "evidence" shows regarding Beyer's "climbing" abilities. On this subject, Donini is both right and wrong. Yes, there is "clearly a difference between one's climbing ability and character."
But I disagree that a person "can celebrate one and not the other."
I can't do that. What Beyer wrote on his own topo marks him as a racist/anti-semite and a low-life. That's what he'll always be, a low-life. And he'll stay a low-life even if he free solos the Nose.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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"I have never personally seen evidence of this". Yet you don't seem to have any problem spreading the rumor...
Has anyone seen any intentional booby traps?
The only "booby traps" on the routes Beyer and I did together are the 60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches.
Now go repeat some of his newer lines and report back
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 19, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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Btw, I do not think that beyer had anything to do with "the grapefruit sized rock" that clobbered my face the other week. I just saw the thread pop up again, and thought it was a chance for some synchronous humor!
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RP3
Big Wall climber
Twain Harte
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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You got me, John Kelly. I have not personally seen this and I may have participated in spreading a rumor. I am only citing the experience of people I know.
Then again, have you personally seen an atom? You believe in their existence because people who are credible to you have told you they exist.
I share a similar attitude towards the alleged booby traps.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
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Booby trapping, were it to lead to injury is likely a felony offense.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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and if it led to a fatality .. then what ?
It could all be talk and since few seem to be interested in
repeating his routes maybe we'll never know. Crazy talk though,
not statements that most of us would make sittin' round the
campfire.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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Long scary falls without injury are just misdemeanors.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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But they have now identified post long, scary fall syndrome. Has driven climbers to surfing or, in really serious cases, mountain biking.
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Gimp
Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Donini this begs the question of whether PLSFS is a state or federally compensable disability? If so do you have a link to the form to fill out?
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
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60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches.
(!)
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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Yeah Tim way over your head!
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timy
Sport climber
Durango
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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myths and ledgends
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
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60' runouts on .11/.12 pitches
Caught my eye too. That's some world class climbing, even in this age.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 19, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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Has anyone seen any intentional booby traps? I agree with johnkelly (and also Rivet hanger) on this - insufficient evidence.
In the Intifada repeat, I recall was just Richard Jensen's guess that the bathook holes may have been intentionally filled in with sand.
I believe Richard stated himself that rains could have brought mud down the wall and filled in some of the holes.
It would be difficult to prove intent.
As for when Beyer states himself he boobytraps his routes,
it might be true, or he might be trolling.
I'd like to see a report/photo of an actual boobytrapped placement.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
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Intentional booby trapping placements with premeditated intent to cause bodily harm to an unsuspecting climber would definitely fall under a felony conviction.
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